Deadhold

MadBeka · Post by **MadBeka** » 20 Nov 2014, 09:30

Glad to hear that fisj.

As a bounus I'd like to share these few pages from an old book "Game Design: Theory & Practice Second Edition". It can be found online and there is a whole chapter of the book dedicated to analysing Myth: The Fallen Lords.

http://i.imgur.com/XyJUryr.png
http://i.imgur.com/jb4zSmm.png
http://i.imgur.com/M0d1iDR.png
http://i.imgur.com/Rnkb9GC.png

switch · Post by **switch** » 20 Nov 2014, 09:41

The bit at the end about the technical limitations of the zoom was the best

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 21 Nov 2014, 09:12

Lol that is indeed pretty funny given the heated discussion about extended zoom last year

Big Brother ARMY · Post by **Big Brother ARMY** » 21 Nov 2014, 21:13

MadBeka : just found this book after reading your post. It's great - thanks for the insight!

drunken_deer · Post by **drunken_deer** » 25 Nov 2014, 08:04

what i would be interested in knowing is if there will be a steam fear;loathing workshop essentially a simple to use software program like starcraft mapmaker that will allow a multitude of plugins similar to that of the tain. This is what kept myth alive for so long all the custom maps like mazz demise ect. Obviously long way away after game production but if there is intention to do so would be nice to know.

fisj · Post by **fisj** » 01 Dec 2014, 01:58

We absolutely want to allow mods, however there's a few caveats and things that need to happen before we can. Epic needs to add support for content plugins, which I believe is planned for UnrealTournament, but there's no set date on when they'll get to that. Secondly, assuming the plugin support comes in sometime in 2015, mod making would be done using a Deadhold fork of the Unreal 4 editor/engine on Github ... and that means mod makers would need a subscription to Unreal4 ($20 a month). There's probably going to be biblical wailing and gnashing of teeth at that, but it is illegal to provide their amazing editor for free. Creating a custom editor (from scratch) is vastly more work than making Deadhold itself. That said though, the Unreal4 editor is insanely more powerful than anything like fear/loathing. Arguably the Deadhold framework ontop of U4 could be considered a flexible game making platform ... but I digress.

There are some interesting possibilities for modmakers to sell their user generated content on the Steam Workshop, but we haven't investigated this much yet.

On a personal note, I will say that I pretty much owe my career to Myth/Marathon mod making, so if there's anyone who wants to see a vibrant mod community develop around Deadhold ... its me.

I hope that clears things up (but probably doesn't). It's something that's constantly on our minds, so if we can reasonably do it, we'll do our best to make sure it happens.

-fisj

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 01 Dec 2014, 04:51

fisj wrote:mod makers would need a subscription to Unreal4 ($20 a month)

Lol. No. Good luck.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 01 Dec 2014, 19:05

wwo wrote: Lol. No. Good luck.

Up until recently it would not have been possible at all without a multi-hundred thousand dollar Unreal license. The reality is that it's great that even small teams can make games with these AAA engines, but it's not as if millions of dollars of technology are going to be given away for free...

So if you have a small team, you either do indy-style 2D stuff or you get an engine license. Unfortunately the latter means that anyone who wants to work with the game/plugins also needs a license, but do keep in mind that this project itself would likely not be possible (with as small a team as they have) without engine middleware.

I still think it's a good decision to use an engine in any case fisj - there have been several attempts at Myth-like projects that have made the mistake of starting from scratch and ultimately getting nowhere.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 02 Dec 2014, 05:04

I call bullshit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Mod

The vast majority of games aren't worth $1, nevermind $60. If you need the CoD/DotA audience just to break even, at least have the integrity to say so. But don't pull shit out of your ass to cover the backpedal.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 02 Dec 2014, 07:43

wwo what are you even talking about... did you misread fisj's post or something? Your comment doesn't seem to make any sense...

switch · Post by **switch** » 02 Dec 2014, 21:41

Dark mod looks sick, is there someway to run version 2.0 on Mac OS?

Pyro · Post by **Pyro** » 03 Dec 2014, 03:18

punkUser wrote:wwo what are you even talking about... did you misread fisj's post or something? Your comment doesn't seem to make any sense...

I think he is saying, why choose the Unreal engine over an open source engine which wouldn't require a mod maker to pay to mod?

drunken_deer · Post by **drunken_deer** » 03 Dec 2014, 13:58

Pyro wrote:
punkUser wrote:wwo what are you even talking about... did you misread fisj's post or something? Your comment doesn't seem to make any sense...
I think he is saying, why choose the Unreal engine over an open source engine which wouldn't require a mod maker to pay to mod?

I honestly would be happy to pay an extra $20 dollars for a proper editor that did not require me to read a tome to understand how the unreal engine works.

Myth plugs was always about ease of access to a blank slate (when color mapping was easy and it wasnt out of date with modern software having to use photoshop ect).
and uploading on tain free.

I refuse to pay subscription fee's ever, that goes for multiplayer games ect and I do not intend to start now.

fisj · Post by **fisj** » 03 Dec 2014, 15:52

We chose the engine for exactly the reasons punkUser guessed. It really wasn't a question "Which engine should we pick or create?", Deadhold became possible because Unreal4 was released.

Epic removes an unprecedented amount of barriers from development, but nothing is ever going to be perfectly fitting, and modding is one of those uncertain areas. We'll update as we, ourselves, know more.

I'd like to say that modding communities can achieve pretty much anything, but at the same time, its a fact that even with the best tools, development of modern games, for modern expectations, has become a lot more involved and complex. As drunken_deer points out, Unreal requires a tome of knowledge to even get started. I'm doubtful that there's a way to simplify that down past a certain point. I'd like to be proved wrong.

-fisj

par73 · Post by **par73** » 03 Dec 2014, 16:42

the 20$ for the editor goes a long way in that only people who are actually dedicated will be making materials, probably upping the ante for qualtiy
i highly doubt it would be profitable but if you factor time and resources with opportunity, who's to say it couldn't be

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 03 Dec 2014, 19:09

On the bright side... Zak is unlikely to pay $20/month, so we won't have to suffer through an endless barrage of shit maps, useless plugins, etc.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 04 Dec 2014, 18:27

Pyro wrote: I think he is saying, why choose the Unreal engine over an open source engine which wouldn't require a mod maker to pay to mod?

Gigantic quality gap?

Tools is definitely a main area where open source engines aren't even in the same league at the moment. And recall that I say this as someone directly involved with the industry, so I'm not just making it up. There's a reason why lots of people use Unreal, Unity, etc.

Seriously the only real alternatives are:
a) A much larger team and more time ($$)
b) Much lower quality product (in which case why not just keep using Myth 2...)
c) Never finish anything significant...

But of course anyone is welcome to make something similar with an open source engine. I doubt you'll get as far in as little time, but good luck in any case.

drunken_deer · Post by **drunken_deer** » 08 Dec 2014, 12:14

can I just shamelessly add to join my myth 2 group if you have not done so already. Deadhold is on steam, I dunno if it is on kick-starter so if your going to want players to build your friend list up ect I suggest adding my group.

I also suggest liking my steam curator page as it has plenty of suggestions if you want to broaden your game horizons, especially those dinosaur mythers out there that have not played anything else for over a decade.

http://steamcommunity.com/gid/103582791 ... 38/members

drunken_deer · Post by **drunken_deer** » 09 Dec 2014, 12:34

quick mention also, when you start publicly beta testing. Get Jim Sterling, Total Biscuit, Yatzee, BarryDennen ect to test your green-lit game. They have huge followings and will help connect you up with the bigger websites if your game is decent.

Lord---Scary Owl · Post by **Lord---Scary Owl** » 12 Dec 2014, 02:09

What is deadhold? Who is creating deadhold? Where can i look at deadhold? Is deadhold already made and I just didn't know, then how can I get it?

Pyro · Post by **Pyro** » 13 Dec 2014, 03:34

The first post answers all of that. Click on the link that is why it is there.

ska · Post by **ska** » 13 Dec 2014, 12:54

Game looks amazing already, very excited to play this.

Lord---Scary Owl · Post by **Lord---Scary Owl** » 14 Dec 2014, 02:49

Already just from the video....Myth 2 > Deadhold by appearance.... but I will give it a try.

Garrick · Post by **Garrick** » 14 Dec 2014, 19:29

Come on Lord, you can't honestly think that. Myth is very dated.

So far I'm really impressed in the looks department!

Lord---Scary Owl · Post by **Lord---Scary Owl** » 14 Dec 2014, 20:53

Personally I like the slightly pixelated graphics and physics of myth. The game looks fun but inside myth will always be my favorite.

Pogue · Post by **Pogue** » 14 Dec 2014, 23:02

Finally read this whole thread. Sounds great.

Professional Killer · Post by **Professional Killer** » 16 Dec 2014, 06:49

I've been watching this thread from time to time and this project looks amazing with dedicated gamemakers.
I've told in an earlier thread that I was interested in donating a good amount of money to serious projects. This seems to be one and I like to do contribute to this game before I die and hopefully give alot of joy to the players rising from the legacy of Myth and give them as much joy as I hav had with this game

.

Pm if this is interesting I am not taking any discussions about this here.

PK

MadBeka · Post by **MadBeka** » 18 Dec 2014, 15:17

There's an alpha signup on their webpage.

http://www.deadhold.com/

fisj · Post by **fisj** » 18 Dec 2014, 15:59

MadBeka beat me to it!

Responding to some of the earlier posts in this thread ...

@Drunken Deer, Thanks for the links to steam groups and suggestions for youtubers. This is absolutely something we have to do. We've each spent about 2 decades making games, so we feel like we've got a decent handle on that, but marketing is a whole different kettle of fish. It's going to be a challenge for sure, and I'm starting to schedule this into my routine more. The more support and help from the community in grass roots marketing the better. So again, a big thanks to everyone who helps spread the word!

I'm also happy to see some new people noticing Deadhold! We've got some big things coming up soon, so keep your eyes peeled.

I cross posted the below to the tain ... tldr is signup to the newsletter, and hop into irc if you're interested.

+++++++++++

We're gearing up for semi regular closed playtests, but also getting the ball rolling on the community side of things.

1) I just set up a Newsletter & Alpha Signup page. Please sign up if you're interested in testing our alpha, and or general news updates. We have a small group that's helping us test internally, but we'll be drawing more and more people from this list as we're ready to grow the playtest group.

http://deadhold.us9.list-manage.com/sub ... aefe45c825

2) We have an IRC channel. I'm usually around in the evenings (EST) and we have some old school members and Australians. I personally prefer the realtime chat stuff the best. Come shoot the breeze with us sometime.

A) https://gamesurge.net/chat/
B) Enter your Nickname
C) Type "/join #deadhold"

3) Deadhold forums will be coming soon. They're primarily being used as testing feedback right now, but once we start bringing in more people for tests we'll open them up.

Other news:

We're still dropping in major systems. So please forgive us for the irregular updates, we want to make sure we've got things to a minimum playable state before we really start the ball rolling publicly.

As usual, if you have any questions you can always reach me via email at "fisj@deadhold.com"

Thanks all!

-fisj

bone · Post by **bone** » 21 Dec 2014, 00:26

Wow. Amazing news. I can't wait to see what comes out!

For what it's worth...

My Top 3 Myth features:

1) The authentic feel. I've done hikes in Alaska and Patagonia, and even now I sometimes think about what it would look like on a Myth map. I remember thinking how cool it was for soulless to attack you over impassable rocks, and how fun it is to use trees, canyons, and hills to your advantage in a fight. And I still appreciate the small touches, like ambient birds.

2) The absence of unit building. I played Warcraft 2, the C&C series, and a little StarCraft before Myth, and I think this feature really made me a convert. I am (still) so sick of games that require massive amounts of fast clicking, and playing a game where I could even find time to look around and think a bit was really a revelation. Plus, weirdly, I would grow a little attached to some of the units during a game.

3) Heavy reliance on in-game chat, for multiplayer. Myth taught me how to type. It really did. There isn't a good team that doesn't need to rely heavily on instruction, direction, communication, etc, and it's awesome. I honestly don't know if I would have been as excited about this if Ventrilo had been around when Myth first came out... gamers' voices tend to sound a lot less cool than from what I imagine from text.

What Would Make A Better Myth?

Honestly, if Myth were still played regularly by thousands, I'd probably keep on playing until the day I die. It's just too damn fun. So in a sense, I kinda think the basic form is sacred, and would rather play that than anything else. However, if I had a wish list...

I wish Myth was an eSport, and had announcers, tournaments, and that sort of thing. I'm not too familiar with the LoL model, but if it could have the same results for a Myth-like game? Hell yes.

It would be cool to see a few more tactical elements that no one quite managed to implement, like especially fog, or trees that burn down, or even collapse and become part of the terrain. Of course, I wouldn't really want modifiable terrain if it was implemented poorly, causing lame strategies like using a dwarf to dig huge trenches around a flag or something.

Also, I would LOVE the ability to rewind films. I can't tell you how many times this would have been a great help (although magma increasing the replay speed max to 64x and more was nice).

Lastly, to weigh in on randomness, I've played tactical games that use an obscenely high amount of randomness (Wesnoth), and a much more restricted random factor (tactics arena), and from my experience, increasing the amount of uncertainty (ie. in Wesnoth) just increases the learning curve. Most players learn inductively (trial and error), and it's hard as hell to figure out what you're soon when some terrible ideas succeed, and some great ones fail. So a large amount of randomness kinda sucks.

However, a nonexistent amount of randomness kind of sucks too, as in that case, strategic innovation that works catches like wildfire, and most games quickly seem samey-samey. What's awesome of just a little bit of randomness, is that players sometimes take dramatic risks, on the small hope that they pay off. Without randomness, these risks will always fail, and thus aren't worth taking. I much prefer the excitement of watching a brilliant and ballsy play over the dullness of watching a great computer play chess.

More randomness sucks more than less randomness, but I like the way it was handled in Myth.

drunken_deer · Post by **drunken_deer** » 21 Dec 2014, 06:10

bone wrote:snip

Essentially agree with bone on all fronts; A few things to keep it myth like that bone prob forgot to mention

*I would like to mention adding too many ability buttons like Rome total war 2 will kill this game. A few is ok, like 1 ability for a unit ect but having too much casting/effect stuff really dampen on actual micro-management and the use of tactics. This should not be in any way like league of losers or a moba either.

* micro-transactions, you start throwing this stuff around before the release or intention to make some as a indy dev you can kiss this game goodbye. Players go to indy games to avoid this kind of extortion and that is not to say make expansions for the future with whole campaigns ect like chimera was for myth. Take Dragon age 3, ive heard a lot of people say and notice a tonne of content removed so the publisher Activision can sell the game piece by piece.

* Team Voice chat, would be awesome to implement into the game though obviously late stage thing.

* Clans and Groups, I would love to create a new group of players new and old rtt style gamers with my own clan tag which brings me to my final point.

*Chat Lobby, so many times this gets left out from multiplayer games. The idea of having a lobby where the entire community can communicate without area/world zone restriction is a massive step in the right direction. Without a decent lobby with a simple interface like myth for instance gaining friends on steam is harder, talking to players is difficult and you end up with a game where you are only getting random participation from players in games due to what bone has mentioning similar to having a game to look around and think/talk a bit which leads to a empty Deadhold community because no one knows how many people are online and who actually is online.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 21 Dec 2014, 13:19

Myth As an ESport... Ah the wonder

MadBeka · Post by **MadBeka** » 22 Dec 2014, 08:02

drunken_deer wrote: *I would like to mention adding too many ability buttons like Rome total war 2 will kill this game. A few is ok, like 1 ability for a unit ect but having too much casting/effect stuff really dampen on actual micro-management and the use of tactics. This should not be in any way like league of losers or a moba either.

You're right about this. Rome 2 unit abilities are the worst in any strategy game I can think of. There is no reason for them to exists as most of them just make units "fight harder" for a shot period of time and units should fight the best of their abilities in the first place. So for example cavaly "special" ability is to charge harder, foot units fight in melle harder, missile units fire missiles faster etc. Shogun 2 also did this but not as much as Rome II.

Logic behind adding this ablilities was that player still have still have something to do when units are engaged because combat between units takes much more time and requires much less micromanagement than in Myth. They tried to make combat more dinamic and micro-intensive (I don't know if this word even means somethin or I just made it up) but it ended up in being a chore. Every engagement you have to go trough the whole list of your units and click on their stupid abilities which is not fun or strategic at all.

drunken_deer wrote: * micro-transactions, you start throwing this stuff around before the release or intention to make some as a indy dev you can kiss this game goodbye. Players go to indy games to avoid this kind of extortion and that is not to say make expansions for the future with whole campaigns ect like chimera was for myth. Take Dragon age 3, ive heard a lot of people say and notice a tonne of content removed so the publisher Activision can sell the game piece by piece.

If it's not a free game then it should not have micro transactions. Even if they are just for cosmetic purposes only, the most tolerable in competetive games, they still can cause troubles. Like in Starcraft 2 where some players can get alternative skins for some units. I heard a lot of people complaining that they can't get the feel for right number of enemy units at glance because some skins are a little bigger than default ones.

drunken_deer wrote: * Team Voice chat, would be awesome to implement into the game though obviously late stage thing.

Only game I know that had team chat implemented is L4D2. I don't know why many games I played didn't have this feature. Maybe licencing? Texting is fine but I wouldn't complain if there was voice chat.

drunken_deer wrote: * Clans and Groups, I would love to create a new group of players new and old rtt style gamers with my own clan tag which brings me to my final point.

This is the one of the most important things for me. I like to play in team much more than I like to play single. Making chatting and grouping with other players easy should be mandatory.

drunken_deer · Post by **drunken_deer** » 22 Dec 2014, 10:44

Dawn of War II had voice chat
Call of duty franchise, Counter strike has voice chat
You see a lot of advertisement for use of Ventrillo, Mumble, Skype and Team-speak for many games, cutting out the middle man so to speak means that in competitive play when you see something happen your reaction is faster. Its a lot harder to type and explain explicit commands while micromanaging units in a battle.

As for micro transactions a further point out is, that a lot of myth players like to purchase things on a shoestring budget and introducing micro transactions is a good way to kill off their appetite for a alternative rtt game. IF you want evidence to prove how folly indy dev games with micro transactions are I can provide a plethora of games that have numerous forum complaints to the point of boycotting it.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 22 Dec 2014, 11:50

Dota 2 and other MOBAs also have voice chat implemented in their games

Sormiron · Post by **Sormiron** » 29 Dec 2014, 11:46

What I mostly fear is that this game will be another myth 3 wich was unplayable at release becouse of bugs. Sure myth 3 had a lot of flaws but it was the bugs that killed it for me right at the start. If it gets a decent player base I´d probably enjoy deadhold. I wonder if it will include the option to modify your formations and also if you will be able to get veterans. Getting a unit with 5 kills and heal it up in myth is so satisfying somehow. Vet stygs is yum yum.

fisj · Post by **fisj** » 30 Dec 2014, 02:51

Hey all!

Quick update ... Deadhold got Greenlit on Steam today! Huge thanks to everyone who voted for us! This means we can now publish Deadhold on Early Access when we decide we're ready. Lots for us devs to discuss internally with this hurdle now cleared, but I wanted to share the big news.

Some quick responses to questions above:

@Sormiron: Deadhold will be developed iteratively on Steam's Early Access platform. Early access is essentially alpha/beta access to games during their development. I'm certain we'll have bugs, but we'll have a regular build schedule to quickly address bugs or imbalances that crop up. Development these days is (fortunately) very different, as are the circumstances (no publisher watching over us).

@Drunken_deer: Steam SDK has voice chat built in, so this might not be difficult to implement. We need to investigate. Clans and groups, very likely. Chat lobby, that's the current plan, but needs more investigation.

@par73: Who wouldn't want Myth as an esport? Myth practically invented esport. No?

@bone: Authentic feel, a lot of this is just plain artistry and polish, obviously we want this. No to unit building, with the exception of reinforcements like Myth. Ingame chat, yeap, but we want to explore whether we can include voice chat, because I believe friends will want to voice chat, in addition to more pro teams.

It's my belief that if Myth were redone today it could be extremely popular, somehow the genre of RTTs got lost. Myth solved a lot of showstoppers I encountered with pure RTS games, and its a bizarre mystery to me why nobody ever did anything like Myth since.

-fisj

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 30 Dec 2014, 04:23

congrats on getting greenlit! that is huge news! looking forward to alpha testing

Sormiron · Post by **Sormiron** » 30 Dec 2014, 17:38

Sweet. I will folow this with interest. Having a lobby would be awsome and is something I´ve missed in other games.

DBSeeker · Post by **DBSeeker** » 01 Jan 2015, 16:30

Looking forward to the alpha testing as well.

I have confidence this game isn't going to end up with the same problems that plagued Myth 3. Mainly because we're guaranteed a finished product here without publisher shenanigans interfering.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 02 Jan 2015, 21:53

Deadhold made the list of 2015 games here - kudos guys

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/01 ... f-2015/14/

East Wind tmnt · Post by **East Wind tmnt** » 04 Jan 2015, 17:01

Fisj - congrats on being green lit, Limp told me about Deadhold - looks cool as hell.

fisj · Post by **fisj** » 06 Jan 2015, 01:40

This was unexpected and totally awesome. It's a huge list, but it shows they're watching our progress, and RPS is one of my favorite sites. Thanks for posting the link, I'd have completely missed it otherwise(!).

-fisj

fisj · Post by **fisj** » 07 Jan 2015, 23:56

We've just brought our forums online, head on over and register if you're inclined.

http://forums.deadhold.com/

-fisj

Rikkµ · Post by **Rikkµ** » 21 Jan 2015, 23:17

I just saw this Deadhold thing. Interesting... I prefer to make models with my 3D scanner and RapidWorks and Solidworks when I feel like doing such.Saves a lot of time if you want to make 3D models as you can get RL models and mess with them to make anything really. Looks like a fun job there, Fisjy .The Corporation would be proud

Chohan · Post by **Chohan** » 22 Jan 2015, 17:23

Friendly reminder the Iconoclasts won't be on deadhold so it will always be shit tier.

rawr · Post by **rawr** » 22 Jan 2015, 20:49

can we play this yet?

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 26 Apr 2015, 19:08

http://forums.deadhold.com/discussion/4 ... deity-sets

LOL

drunken_deer · Post by **drunken_deer** » 27 Apr 2015, 05:57

Zak wrote:http://forums.deadhold.com/discussion/4 ... deity-sets

LOL

I was actually looking forward to progress. This games production is like one step forward two steps backwards.

This game is turning more and more into Age of mythology without basebuilding.