NBA SPORTS TALK 1o1

[rawr]

http://www.lakersnation.com/charles-bar ... 014/06/16/

[par73]

barkley just showing some love to kobe (and some 'prove me wrong' motivation to james). can't forget about kobe. kobe the closest player to catching jordan. somone could say leborn is closer to catching kobe than jordan, but really kobe took all of jordans moves. lebron has had a different flavor of dominance in comparison to the legendary shooting gaurds.


the emphasis of this article seems to revolve around the 'championship ring' theory, so lets work with that as the definitive factor in talking about players 'catching' and being more 'legendary' than other players.

here's the thing
kobe and jordan played on their respective franchizes their entire careers (ok, so kobe was on the hornets for a day after getting drafted and jordan joined the wizards in 2001 as a joke).
lebron has made it to the finals with two different franchizes. he's 0-1 and 2-2 in that aspect. jordan's 6-0 in finals, albiet he skipped the 94 95 seasons (jordan beat barkley's suns in 93, gg charles). kobe's 5-2 in finals, missing the 4peat in 2004 to the pistons and losing to the celtics to miss a 3peat in 2008.
lebron's 2-3 record and could potentially have 8 more finals starting appearances before he's retired. especially with the way the east looks (unless some star power from the west decides to invade the east). even with 7 more finals appearances, he'd have a chance to tie the most years with a finals appearance (bill russell, 12 [11-1]).

the fact of the matter is, lebron's career is far from over and he has plenty of time to surpass kobe or jordan in total NBA finals wins. it took kobe until he was 29 to get his first league MVP (11 years in the league), lebron has 4 league MVPs in 11. he's currently, sad to say it, the clear definitive king of the east. he doesn't play in the west where kobe, duncan, durant (howard, dirk, aldridge, paul/griffin) constantly fight for the crown of their respective conference. i think lebron will stay on the heat and has definately not seen the last of his days in NBA finals best of 7 series, especially with the eastern conference stagnant with superstars and teams that can contend with miami.

lebron has more than enough time to catch up to kobe in every statistical category. i thnk he will, except, say in NBA finals wins.
jordan though, heh, jordan is a whole different kind of ball player from a whole different era in basketball. can't beat jordan unless you win in every finals appearance, and win mvp in every finals appearance.

lebron james probably doesn't do much to make the NBA popular around the country and internationally, but micheal jordan certainly did (and still does).

[Chohan]

Since Rawr makes a General thread and posts nothing worthwhile to talk about. Teams on the fall and teams on the rise and those stuck in place.


Fall

•Miami Heat - The heat owner has clearly showed he does not want to pay the huge repeater tax that was changed in the last CBA otherwise Mike Miller would have been on the heat still. (They also had a mid level exception they didn't even use to sign someone). Ray Allen is 1 year older. Dwayne Wade's health is clearly declining rapidly and with it being an arthritic condition it's along the lines of Brandon Roy it won't ever get better just worse with time, I can't see it being possible of him opting out to take less money again when he's in this position health wise with $40 million guaranteed coming to him. Bosh is also signed on for $20 million and he plays at a $10 million level. Mario Chalmers is a free agent and many teams will offer him easily 2-4x what the heat can. They were the oldest team in the league this year and it will only get worse.

The bright spot for the heat they own virtually all of their future draft picks.

•Brooklyn Nets - There are just too many good young teams in the East and this team is just too old and way to financially invested in Joe Johnson for this team to make any serious playoff runs, they traded away all of there foreseeable future draft picks


Stuck

•Los Angeles Lakers - So much of the future of the Lakers decided on the lottery this year if they won a top 3 pick it was basically guaranteed to be traded to the timberwolves for Kevin Love, alas it wasn't and nobody who has what the lakers need will be trading it away for the 7th pick. The Lakers best option is to trade the 7th pick along with future draft picks or assets to the Magic for the 4th pick so the Lakers could get Exum (Could also help by pulling a kobe and refusing to play for a team to force a trade this way) unless the Magic want him that badly. Besides that all the Lakers can hope to get is a 1st round playoff exit if they can even make it over the next 2 years then enter rebuild mode once Kobe retires (Some people seem to think Westbrook would sign with the Lakers after his contract is up, I can't see westbrook walking away when the thunder have 2 of the top 5 players in the NBA on 1 team) FA Signings that could help save the Lakers soon - Greg Monroe, Eric Bledsoe.

•New York Knicks - Awful draft future until it clears up around 17-18'. A'mare, JR Smith, Barnanai. This team is virtually fucked, they can't even trade Camelo away for draft picks he is either going to just walk away in FA or just score 30 a night and not play a minute of defense for 5-6 more years here while the Knicks never do anything. The only thing that can save this team is pure luck, J.R Smith has to stop being a childish fool, A'mare and Carmelo both need to learn that defense is also apart of basketball and that it's possible to pass the ball, Tyson Chandler also needs to step it up some.


On The Rise

•76'ers - Nerlens Noel, Michael Carter-Williams, Thaddeus Young and the 3rd and 10th overall picks in this years draft. A lot of this teams future is uncertain but if they draft well and Nerlens stays healthy and plays to the level he should they should be able to be top team in the east very shortly. Will have tons of free cap room as well to possibly sign a mid to higher end free agent.

•Cleveland Cavs - Stacked with high draft picks in just 3 years time, Kyrie Irving (1st overall), Tristian Thompson (4th overall), Dion Waiters (4th overall), Anthony Bennett (1st Overall), Sergey Karasev (19th Overall), Tyler Zeller (17th Overall). And now also hold the #1 pick this year which unless it's traded for Kevin Love or LaMarcus Aldridge will either be Joel Embidd or Andrew Wiggins. The Cavs also have the only shot at getting LeBron outside of the Heat keeping him. With the Heat in possible rebuilding mode and the Pacers possibly losing Lance and Hibbert constantly sucking, the cavs have the possibility to dominate the east again in the foreseeable future.

•Boston Celtics - Rondo is only 28, Olynyk and Bradley are young and developing. They have the 6th (Either Vonleh, Gordon or Randle) and 17th picks in the 1st round of the draft this year. They have 2 more 1st round picks from the Brooklyn Nets coming along with their own picks. Also the last possible landing Spots for Kevin Love. The Celtics are in a bit of a different spot than the Cavs and 76'ers who got absolutely loaded with talent via tons of high 1st round picks. The Celtics will have 2 good picks this year but also have the benefit of already having Rondo and most of their future success will depend on how he does or if a trade happens.

[par73]

ray allen looked healthier than dwade

[par73]

on the rise:


los angeles clippers
deandre jordan the league leading block artist and rebound machine last year. doc rivers leading chris paul and 4th year vet blake griffin, can't forget about cross up crawford coming off the bench saying lights out

golden state warriors
almost took out the clippers. just lost their head coach and got steve kerr to check in, going to be interesting how it plays out but im sure the back office had good reasoning

portland trail blazers
lamarcus aldridge and damien lillard. went 4-1 against the spurs, just like the miami heat

houston rockets
oh man these guys are hungry for more

treading ice:
oklahoma city thunder. should have never lost harden to the rockets. ibaka got injured late in the season. they need another asset or westbrook has to learn to facilitate the entire offense and send 10 of his 30 nightly shot attempts to durant.
perkins is just complete ass without rivers, garnett, and since he was injured in the 5th game of the 2010 nba finals. can't wait to see who the thunder replace him with. ibaka does the majority of the defensive work around the rim anyway.


on the fall: dallas mavericks (dirk gunna retire), denver nuggets, utah jazz



surprise of the 2014 season:
team : toronto raptors.
player: damien lillard

[Captain]

I can't believe people actually think Kobe is good....

http://thesportingtruth.com/?p=2035

http://twitpic.com/ca72mm

Most overrated player of all time.

[East Wind tmnt]

cleveland ~hired mike brown twice

[Asmodian]

I can't believe people actually think Kobe is good....

http://thesportingtruth.com/?p=2035

http://twitpic.com/ca72mm

Most overrated player of all time.

You are right, Kobe is probably the most overrated player ever. He is very inefficient, but luckily for him he was placed in an amazing situation with Shaq(the most dominate big man ever in his prime) and a very impressive Bynum/Pau combo. When you have those bigs cleaning up your numerous missed shots every game you are able to get away with it and look great.

[par73]

there was a more dominant big man in his prime, and his name was hakeem the dream olajuwon

the argument for kareem abdul-jabbar is there too. moses malone was very very dominant in his prime too, hakeem and kareem both learned loads from him and his play.

as well as timmy duncs (and the admiral david robinson left right in time for dunk's prime time to shine).

one could argue wilt chamberlin/bill russell. but they were both great equalizers against each other, wilt the offensive dominator and russell the defensive dominator.

i'm pretty sure the greatest reasoning behind kobe being called overrated is the fact that he has a million+ people who hate him, and i am one of his biggest critics who probably would be lumped into that group. if anything, his ratings have been right where he should be. but damn, a million+ people of hate? that's enough power to swindle anyone living in rhode island.

i love how this article cites the changes in his stateline from regular season to the playoffs in the early 2000s lakers year, don't they realize coaches often change team plans in different settings? if kobe wasn't taking less shots and thereby wasn't feeding the ball to shaq in the 2000s they just wouldn't have gotten the job done, philly jackson knows how to win championships.
Shaq was peaking in his prime in the early 2000s while bryant had been in the league for about 3 years including a lock out season.

Shaq was also one of those players in the early 2000s who was gifted with not getting calls against him because if he fouled out of the game the game would become less interesting. Shaq might have dominated, but he didn't do it alone all the time. If you had the balls to foul shaq, you were getting tossed out of the game.

Bryant didn't peak until 2006-2010.
he was literally robbed 2 years of League MVP's by steve nash and nash's ability to efficently run mike d'antoni's score first, score second, score third, score score score run run run, fuck defense, strategy with the pheonix suns. he won the scoring title in those two years, with 31.6 and 35.4 points per game respectively. 35.4, there's only two players in the league who have ever had a better scoring average in one season (michael jordan twice, wilt chamberlin five times).

i don't really get how you could 'overrate' someone who could go 35.4 ppg in a regular season. kobe never averaged the minutes per game that jordan did, and didn't start as an immediate starter. he had to earn that.

ALSO who give a damn if kobe would put shots up because he knew Shaq / Bynum / Gasol would gobble up the rebounds. DON'T YOU EVER FORGET, jordan rolled with Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman, two of the filthiest rebounders in the game. if jordan's shot was missing, they and pippen were there to grab it. those players never really had offensive game like shaq/bynum/gasol, so it's not surprising that jordan brought the ball inside more over his career than kobe has. seriously, without dennis rodman, good luck with the second 3 peat.

last great point in why kobe isn't overrated is: he's the only other player in the NBA who has ever been able to copy micheal jordan's exact moves, step by step, and execute them efficently. Go find me another player who has copied jordan's finesse so well.


most overrated player in the NBA ever?
ricky rubio
i can't believe how bad this guy is.
i think i have a better field goal average all time, jesus

also what the fuck has happened to andrew bynum, anyone? LOOOOOOOL

and while were on this topic and I loved watching him play, AllenIverson was overrated too and thats why he flopped out of the league after winning a few scoring titles, league mvp, and losing the finals to shaq/kobe. so yea, i hate kobe and loved AI but totally supporting kobe's career and dissing on AI here for never conforming to league policies and interests. go figure.

i'll be the first person to stomp all over kobe's career and call him overrated. it doesn't mean the accusations merit anything though, he's earned what he's earned, he's been there and done that, and hell, he might even have another ring opportunity left in him.

ron artest should have won the finals mvp in 2010

[par73]

don't get me wrong, shaq is the most dominant force in the modern day era. he is the diesel.

but you needed kobe in the 4th quarter because shaq struggled with free throws
and it was kobe who was handed the ball
and it was kobe who was asked to deliver
it was kobe who had to play point gaurd sometimes
and it was kobe who had to defend against the opposing team's best player


and then after shaq was gone, the lakers had to plummet

and then they built it back up. and delivered. twice out of 3 finals appearances.

talking about overcoming adversity


and he's trying to do it a THIRD time !
ain't this guy done yet? jesus

so to hear 'kobe is the most overrated player of all time' statement, while these statements are dropped by human beings at least 10 times in any given day since his first comparisons to jordan, i just laugh.

most overrated nba player ever is greg oden
#1 in a draft where kevin durant goes #2, and never sees the light of day injury after injury

i just want a new shaq
im hopin davis or embiid can deliver and not flop off

as if they're trying to be the next kwame brown greg oden mike olowokandi andrea bargiani anyway

[Captain]

don't get me wrong, shaq is the most dominant force in the modern day era. he is the diesel.

but you needed kobe in the 4th quarter because shaq struggled with free throws
and it was kobe who was handed the ball
and it was kobe who was asked to deliver
it was kobe who had to play point gaurd sometimes
and it was kobe who had to defend against the opposing team's best player


and then after shaq was gone, the lakers had to plummet

and then they built it back up. and delivered. twice out of 3 finals appearances.

talking about overcoming adversity


and he's trying to do it a THIRD time !
ain't this guy done yet? jesus

so to hear 'kobe is the most overrated player of all time' statement, while these statements are dropped by human beings at least 10 times in any given day since his first comparisons to jordan, i just laugh.

most overrated nba player ever is greg oden
#1 in a draft where kevin durant goes #2, and never sees the light of day injury after injury

i just want a new shaq
im hopin davis or embiid can deliver and not flop off

as if they're trying to be the next kwame brown greg oden mike olowokandi andrea bargiani anyway

I don't think you know what overrated means.... It means people think they are good when in actually, they are either average or below average. No one thinks Ricky Rubio or Greg Oden are good...

Fact: Kobe is one of the only players in history who is considered good when in his prime, the team won more games when he was on the bench.
Fact: Kobe is a slightly below average shooter who shoots a ton.
Fact: Kobe would maybe have 2 rings if it were not for Shaq.
Fact: Kobe shoots like 27% when the game is on the line, the worst in NBA history

Kobe is a average to maybe slightly above average player who shoots a ton, Is not in the top 10 of all time greats, probably not top 50.

[Chohan]

Greg Oden was the easy choice for #1 pick there was nothing overrated about him. If he didn't have all the injuries he would more than likely be the 2nd best player in the NBA right now only behind LeBron.

[Pogue]

[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bTIklFsMjjU[/youtube]

[par73]

don't get me wrong, shaq is the most dominant force in the modern day era. he is the diesel.

but you needed kobe in the 4th quarter because shaq struggled with free throws
and it was kobe who was handed the ball
and it was kobe who was asked to deliver
it was kobe who had to play point gaurd sometimes
and it was kobe who had to defend against the opposing team's best player


and then after shaq was gone, the lakers had to plummet

and then they built it back up. and delivered. twice out of 3 finals appearances.

talking about overcoming adversity


and he's trying to do it a THIRD time !
ain't this guy done yet? jesus

so to hear 'kobe is the most overrated player of all time' statement, while these statements are dropped by human beings at least 10 times in any given day since his first comparisons to jordan, i just laugh.

most overrated nba player ever is greg oden
#1 in a draft where kevin durant goes #2, and never sees the light of day injury after injury

i just want a new shaq
im hopin davis or embiid can deliver and not flop off

as if they're trying to be the next kwame brown greg oden mike olowokandi andrea bargiani anyway

I don't think you know what overrated means.... It means people think they are good when in actually, they are either average or below average. No one thinks Ricky Rubio or Greg Oden are good...

Fact: Kobe is one of the only players in history who is considered good when in his prime, the team won more games when he was on the bench.
Fact: Kobe is a slightly below average shooter who shoots a ton.
Fact: Kobe would maybe have 2 rings if it were not for Shaq.
Fact: Kobe shoots like 27% when the game is on the line, the worst in NBA history

Kobe is a average to maybe slightly above average player who shoots a ton, Is not in the top 10 of all time greats, probably not top 50.

Kobe’s résumé: 5-2 in the Finals; 15 All-Star Games; one MVP; two Finals MVPs; 11 first-team All-NBAs; two second-team All-NBAs; 13 seasons with a winning percentage over .600; two missed postseasons; only one of six players to score 30,000 points; 25.5 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.8 APG, 45.4% FG, 23.4 PER, 173 win shares (reg. season); 25.6 PPG, 5.1 RPG, 4.7 APG, 44.8% FG, 22.4 PER, 28.3 WS (playoffs). Fantastic? Absolutely.

Kobe should have won the 2006 MVP for these three reasons: trapped on a lousy Lakers team, Kobe dragged them to 45 wins by averaging 41.0 minutes, 27 shots, 10 free throw attempts and 35.4 points; he also made 45 percent of his shots and finished with a 28.0 PER and 15.3 win shares.

That’s an astonishing season when you consider his night-to-night burden.


i wouldn't put kobe in my top 10 of all time greats, he'd probably land in the top 50 though. top 10 of this era greats? yea, probably

@cruniac : i highly doubt greg oden would be the second best player in the national basketball association without having all of those injuries.

[East Wind tmnt]

Heh did u cop that bill Simmons piece too?

[par73]

ya damn right I love that dude

http://grantland.com/features/24-linger ... ba-finals/



oh also about kobe

"Glory didn't come without adversity. Bryant's first season ended with him throwing up air balls in overtime in a season-ending playoff loss in Utah. The next two seasons, the Lakers were swept in the playoffs by Utah and San Antonio. In 2000, Bryant's fourth season, the Lakers won their first NBA title since the Magic Johnson-fueled Showtime era, and Bryant's star status was cemented.

Last season, however, Bryant's tendency to force his offense and ignore his teammates caused a potentially serious rift between him and O'Neal. But in the playoffs, Bryant played an unselfish and superlative brand of basketball that helped the Lakers to a 15-1 waltz through the postseason and a second consecutive title.

Along the way, O'Neal called Bryant the best player in the league, a declaration that seemed to end the Shaq vs. Kobe chapter and the beginning of something else."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/p ... bryant.htm

8. May 12, 1997: Game 5 vs. Utah (First Round). The "Air Ball" Game.

"Kobe Bryant's top ten moments"

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=4152884 #8

Kobe had three air balls in the final minutes of a closeout game. On a team that had four All-Stars going up against the not-yet-awarded MVP's (John Stockton and Karl Malone), the rookie was the one that "wanted" it the most. Even though he missed, it was the "tipping point" moment in Kobe's career. The best thing that ever happened to him were those misses. As his former teammate Shaquille O'Neal said, "[Kobe] was the only guy who had the guts at the time to take shots like that." It was the gift and the curse.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RbLBGZwiR4[/youtube]

[par73]

captain whats your top 10 all time


and top 10 you've actually seen play while being alive

[par73]

ron artest after game 7 of 2010 nba finals

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgRdRwNgs9A[/youtube]

worth the 10 minutes

[Pogue]

Larry Byrd, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson. 3 best players seen live, 3 best players ever. No point in talking about Kobe or Lebron, they aren't even in the same league as those 3. That is all.

[Captain]

Top 10 is such a hard list to make of current players....For the reason: Kobe has had 10 more years that a lot of the players....But since i have been alive...I know I will miss some on my list...but here it goes

Michael Jordan
Keven Durant
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Shaq
Magic
Kareem(Hard to put him in here but technically did see him play....just was super young
Dirk
Dwayne Wade
KG



Has potential to be better: Westbrook, Rose, Kevin Love, James Harden, Blake Griffin, Stephen Curry,

All these are in no order, and done with just thinking about it of who is better, I know I am leaving names off, but ah well

[adrenaline]

how has nobody mentioned Hakeem Olajuwon?

[Chohan]

Hakeem was defiantly amazing. I also feel Larry Bird, Magic, Kareem are all vastly overrated talent wise, they are products of playing in an era where 80% of the games offered 0 competition.

[Asmodian]

Top 10 is such a hard list to make of current players....For the reason: Kobe has had 10 more years that a lot of the players....But since i have been alive...I know I will miss some on my list...but here it goes

Michael Jordan
Keven Durant
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Shaq
Magic
Kareem(Hard to put him in here but technically did see him play....just was super young
Dirk
Dwayne Wade
KG



Has potential to be better: Westbrook, Rose, Kevin Love, James Harden, Blake Griffin, Stephen Curry,

All these are in no order, and done with just thinking about it of who is better, I know I am leaving names off, but ah well

I'll help Captain out with his list:

Hakeem,Stockton,Barkley,Malone,David Robinson,Pippen

Somehow I knew Cap was going to list KG (LOL Minnesota). KG is and was good, but he is probably at the bottom of that list.

[East Wind tmnt]

Bird, magic, Kareem overrated lool.
Captain listing Dwayne wade and kg as top 10 players Jesus fucking Christ


Paris and asmo I'm just shaking my head

[East Wind tmnt]

Kevin durant is also on this list despite not winning anything and not even having finished his career

[East Wind tmnt]

I misread your list, if it's best you've been alive for that's a diff story

[par73]

KG is dominant, one of the most dominant in the era

his last health year 2008? epic

then he got injured


Bird got injured too absolute phenomenol player

man i think crun's whole post is just troll banter anyway


anyway thats a nice respectable list cap

asmo i think you should just make your own top 10 list




me? Top 10 i've seen play
Paul Pierce
Dirk Nowitzki
Michael Jordan (didn't watch him until he unretired the first time)
Kevin Durant - this kid gunna light it up every year he just gotta stay healthy
Karl Malone
Tim Duncan
Kevin Durant
Lebron James
Shaq, damn
and one of my personal favorites, Allen Iverson

pippen takes the #11 spot

wade don't get the list he'd make top 20 though.

talk about overrated, dude had more free throws alone in the 2006 NBA finals decider than the lakers did against shaq in WCF 2002 against the kings.
he's over. dwade is over, UNLESS he pulls the kobe and come back. hilarious really. otherwise hes gunna burn out like a tmac who won a championship


Top 10 ball players of all time:
Bill Russell - uhh first mentionable goat. the player coach in his later years (coach red auerbach retired with 9 rings, bill took over) , one of the greatest defending centers and was one of the first players to ever shape the game. he gets my nod over wilt the stilt chamberlin, Mr. 100 points. while wilt could score 50 a night consistently (points and broads) and did one year averaging 50 points a game, its bill russell who was the player who could shut wilt chamberlin down, and he did it consistently. 11 championship rings. there only one other dude with 11 championship rings and thats a coach named Philly Jackson.
bill also called out wilt as a coward when he asked himself to get benched (down 11) in the last finals bill played in, and when he asked to rejoin the game when the lakers tied it up his coach said 'nope we're doing fine without you'. hilarious really

the way i hear people talk about this dude he pretty much gets no respect even though he dominated an entire decade with his defense.
people just think the 1950s and 1960s were in slow motion.

michael jordan
another GOAT, dominated the 90s. making the finals 6/8 years and winning all six of those finals played in the 90s. defined what it meant to be a competitor in the modern era
this guy is why we all love basketball
this guy is why we even had a discussion about kobe
was robbed of two mvps by malone and barkley LOL

when i first memorably watched the nba he had just retired ! nba jam was poppin in the sega systen too ! then he came back after space jam LIKE WHOA


larry bird - another Celtic, another GOAT

one of the greatest passers, defenders and scorers of his era. career halted short by injuries. was one of the only players who could give the 80s flashy and dominant lakers a run for their money. stayed in college an extra year just to develop, for his college career, he averaged 30.3 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 4.6 assists per game

averaged 10.0 rebounds a game for his NBA career, upped his assists to 6.8. 25.8 points per game. 1.7 steals per game.

the only year the celtics didn't make the playoffs when bird was on the roster, was 1989, when he was injured in the 6th game of the season. in 1992 he retired.

pretty much runs the entire indiana pacers organization and quit a few playoffs ago when he called em a bunch of sissies with no heart.


next on the list: "pistol" pete maravich...

[East Wind tmnt]

All time: Jordan, Russell, Kareem, magic, bird, Tim Duncan, shaq, lebron, Kobe, wilt (no order)

[East Wind tmnt]

Shaq in his prime cud take down Hakeem, but personally I like Hakeem, Jordan said he'd take him as his center for his all time team

[East Wind tmnt]

http://duytano.blogspot.com/2013/11/mic ... -team.html

Jordan on who'd he pick

[Pogue]

Iverson was one of the most talented players I've seen and one of the funniest athletes ever, but he really should have done more in his career

Dominique Wilkins deserves a shout out just for entertainment value alone.

[Captain]

EW, it was a list of since I have been alive, Thanks for adding Asmo. I agree with the picks.

EW-You put Kobe in your top 10 list of all time, so I think we can just throw your opinion out the window completely when it comes to basketball:)

[East Wind tmnt]

lol I'm not even a kobe fan, but honestly how can you put dwade ahead of kobe - he's the second best shooting guard.

[par73]

Shaq in his prime cud take down Hakeem, but personally I like Hakeem, Jordan said he'd take him as his center for his all time team

Hmm
I like how careful you were here, to say "Shaq in his prime"

Coz we already know what happened to Shaq his 3rd year in the league when he lost in the finals to Hakeem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_NBA_Playoffs


ranking centers in their prime (and with heart)
1. kareem - best offensive center ever, unbeatable skyhook so he didn't have to be under the rim like so many other centers
2. bill russell - best defensive center ever, when basketball looked nothing like how it does today
3. shaq - uhh totally dominated early 2000s once reached prime
4. hakeem - so nasty in the post.
5. Moses Malone - any argument of moses malone not being in the top 10 centers of all time, is invalid by default
6. willis reed - "Reed's most famous performance took place on May 8, 1970, during Game 7 of the 1970 NBA Finals against the Los Angeles Lakers in Madison Square Garden. Due to a severe thigh injury, a torn muscle that had previously kept him out of Game 6, he was considered unlikely to play in Game 7. Yet Reed surprised the fans by walking onto the court during warmups, prompting widespread applause. Starting the game, he scored the Knicks' first two field goals on his first two shot attempts, his only points of the game." The Knicks won by 4 points, 113-99
7. david the admiral robinson - this guy was tall, spurs 99'
8. Bill Walton - got screwed over by injuries, the centerpiece of that blazers squad in the 70s80s
9. robert parish - the only center who ever gave kareem trouble
10 wilt - well endowed (he's probably #6)
11. magic johnson - a special shoutout to larry bird's #1 rival of all time, placing him in the #11 spot of top 10 centers of all time
In his rookie season, Magic made it to the Finals of along side kareem up against moses malone and Dr. J Julius Erving the ABA king himself.
"The Lakers compiled a 60–22 record in the regular season and reached the 1980 NBA Finals, in which they faced the Philadelphia 76ers, who were led by forward Julius Erving. The Lakers took a 3–2 lead in the series, but Abdul-Jabbar, who averaged 33 points a game in the series, sprained his ankle in Game 5 and could not play in Game 6. Paul Westhead decided to start Johnson at center in Game 6; Johnson recorded 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals in a 123–107 win, while playing guard, forward, and center at different times during the game. Johnson became the only rookie to win the NBA Finals MVP award, and his clutch performance is still regarded as one of the finest in NBA history."



#99 . dwight howard
#234. Andrew Bynum
#241. Jermaine O'Neal
#829. Kendrik Perkins
#998 Greg Oden
#999. Kwame Brown



A good (controversial) list would be top 10 shooting gaurds ever
MJ pretty much revolutionized this position
if u watch games from the 80s and early 90s before MJ took center stage and left the arena, the broadcast would just label the guard positions as "Guards" rather than differentiate between #1. point and #2 shooting

not to mention they are not well known for their ball handling or passing skills, but being differentiated as mid range shooters, 3pt shooters, driving slashers and defensive studs.

[par73]

Iverson was one of the most talented players I've seen and one of the funniest athletes ever, but he really should have done more in his career

Dominique Wilkins deserves a shout out just for entertainment value alone.

wilkins was one of the best SG's ever, he could possibly land in the top10 list, and definately top 25 SGs


yea Iverson kinda threw his career away, he was done with the bullshit. Let's not forget his joining of the nuggets along side melo, which on paper sounded like a really good idea but in reality it seemed like the GM decided to throw the term DEFENSE out the window and into the gutter.

if AI had mutumbo in his prime in 2001, that finals series goes to 7 games, maybe even a 76ers win

[East Wind tmnt]

problem with iverson and nique is that they were one way players, you'd want two way players for the best of the best. also par nique was a SF. And yea I deliberately said shaq in his prime, cuz hakeem destroyed his ass on their title run that year. He was still learning doe. Shaq was just too fucking big

[East Wind tmnt]

also ewing is in there too, or top 15. I think Tim Duncan should be counted as a center honestly - he played center when he was in his prime. Was listening to a podcast with jeff van gundy, was saying it kinda diminishes TD's greatness to say he's the best PF ever; there's more competition for the center spot.

[par73]

plenty of good players at PF, and he played center throughout the course of his career. rebounds and defends the rim like a center, basically there just hasn't been a better PF in comparison to timmy though
maybe karl malone? KG, Mchale? Dirk ? Barkley? timmy really takes the cake on all of them

[Captain]

lol I'm not even a kobe fan, but honestly how can you put dwade ahead of kobe - he's the second best shooting guard.

See, you are just mistaken because Kobe scores a lot. That doesn't make you a good player. Dwayne wade was a better shooter, passer, defensive player. So how is Kobe better than him?

[par73]

ahh i confused dominique wilkins with clyde drexxler

[wwo]

The Glide.

[HeadHunterKC]

Draft is in 3 days,

Milwaukee on the rise. :

GIANNIS

[East Wind tmnt]

Better defensive player?
K Kobe all defensive first team 9 time selection
D wade 0 first team selections

Kobe 11 time all nba first team selections: 11
Dwade: 2

Kobe has won a MVP as well, but honesty should have in one of those Nash years. Also Kobe reinvented his game, dwade still hasn't and can't shoot threes still. I honestly can't believe I'm defending Kobe, but you gotta respect his game.

[adrenaline]

VINCE CARTER

[Captain]

Better defensive player?
K Kobe all defensive first team 9 time selection
D wade 0 first team selections

Kobe 11 time all nba first team selections: 11
Dwade: 2

Kobe has won a MVP as well, but honesty should have in one of those Nash years. Also Kobe reinvented his game, dwade still hasn't and can't shoot threes still. I honestly can't believe I'm defending Kobe, but you gotta respect his game.

You act like they base those rewards on stats/how well a player plays.

Voting in the NBA is a popularity contest. All that says is Kobe is more popular than D wade. Which we already know that.

[par73]

D wade has zero all defensive first team selections

i'm pretty sure he was a popular dude back in 2006, winning the finals mvp and all.

he also led the league in scoring in 2009, of course this is an offensive award

dwade earned second team in all years that kobe won 1st years. there are plenty of great guards who were chosen besides kobe for those first team defensive awards. jason kidd, rajon rondo, chris paul.

dwade started at the beggining of his nba career, kobe did not


'voting in the nba is a popularity contest' ruled by legends of the game, coaches and dedicated sports journalists. this isn't an all-star nomination we're talking about. specifically the all-defensive team is done by the coaches. "Voting is conducted by the NBA head coaches; the coaches are not allowed to vote for players on their own team."

having more blocked shots or steals in statistic doesn't necessarily earn you a right to be an ALL-NBA defender. kobe had to guard much better guards in the regular season (west conference) who all wanted his blood.

lets say stats do matter though

kobe has 16 seasons averaging 1.0 steal or more per game, out of 18 seasons played. the only two seasons he did not play, he started a total of 7 games out of 150 games. kobe played many full seasons, and played in two seasons that were shortened due to the lock out.

dwade has 11 seasons averaging 1.0 steal or more per game, out of all 11 seasons he has played. he has started a total of 719 out of 710 games in the regular season. dwade has played in less games per season due to injury, and is now reserved and well rested during the regular season.

will dwade make 16 seasons averaging 1.0 steal or more per game?
with the way he's breaking down in his 11th season (kobe didn't break down until his 18th) i'm inclined to think he won't.

[East Wind tmnt]

yea exactly what par said... its not like the all-star voting. And even if you look at his actual stats, its backed up by it. Also another fucking thing, dwade is getting to cherry pick his minutes... he basically played every other game, lebron played 1,300 more minutes than him this season. And he's still breaking down or showing signs he's not the same player.

[Captain]

Well defensive ability is an extremely hard thing to measure in the NBA.

Kobe has 16 seasons on his belt, not counting the 2.
He has averaged at or above 1.5 Steals 9/16 seasons
Dwayne Wade has averaged at or above 1.5 steals 10/11 seasons.

D wade is also a better shooter, has the ability to distribute the ball better than Kobe, Like I said, I don't think very highly of Kobe. He is just an average to above average player who shoots the ball a ton.

Most teams get better when their star players shoots a lot. Kobe's team actually does better when he doesn't even play(Minus the last few years) When Kobe was in his Prime, as the number of shots Kobe took went up, His team winning % went down. No other star player in the History of the NBA has that happen to them.

I am not saying D wade is the best Guard ever, he is just better than Kobe


On a side note: Just saw the news, Lebron terminates contract with Miami....Thoughts of where he goes? Back to Cleveland? HAHA TO MINNESOTA??(Yeah right) I would guess either Cleveland or New York is where he ends up...

[East Wind tmnt]

The article you keep quoting about this the less Kobe shoots the better the team does was debunked btw:

http://www.littlewhitestatistics.com/ca ... -shooting/

It's fine if you want to believe that wade was better than Kobe due to bias, but it's not based on fact.

Neither par asmo or I are even Kobe fans but we are objective.

Also lebron opted out to sign for less money to clear salary cap space most likely not necessarily to leave.

[Captain]

That article is a complete joke....They say the article they are talking about(which I wasn't quoting btw) picked arbitrary numbers and that's why it is off.

Wrong. I am not even talking about the years when Kobe had Bynum and stuff, I am talking his early years...But none the less, Kobe again, is one of the only stars to have a negative effect on his team's outcome of the came.