GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Aug 2016, 21:18

Here is my list. No one is going to agree with anyone else's list completely, so just post your own list if you disagree. I just used grim's list of names and re-ordered them (adding a few that he missed somehow and subtracting a few that didn't belong).

I am too lazy to build some scoring system which would only attempt to give the illusion of objectivity. This is just going off of my own intuition, which is based on the following:

1) The most emphasis is placed on the top-level of performance ever achieved by players in 1v1 and team tournaments at any given time (with 2-team weighted much more than 1v1)
2) Some emphasis on consistency of performance.
3) Very little emphasis on longevity (players that were dominant for only a couple years before retiring are not penalized).
4) A boost to captains/strategists who led their teams to mwc championships.
5) A boost to very smart players who make great in-game decisions.
6) Emphasis on performances in years between 2003-2013

Another way of putting the approach of this list, is this:

if you were building an all-star team roster, and:

1) removed all the bias you have for your friends / against your enemies / any team chemistry considerations
2) could use any past retired players, and
3) all players were playing as if in their prime,

then what would be the ranking of your preferred choices?

I am more confident of the rankings closer to the top of the list, becoming less confident as it goes down the list. I am open to suggestions on how to revise some of the middle and bottom of the list (middle and bottom only), and only suggestions IF:

1) you are reputable in knowing your myth history and evaluating myth skill, and
2) understand and are in agreement with the guidelines I just described above (if you want to use a different set of guidelines then it should be done with a different list).

I am also open to hearing suggestions of other players I missed / forgot about. I will revise and improve the list over time if needed.

GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time List:

1) GKG
2) Chohan
3) Tirri
4) Shaister
5) Kirk
6) Rabican
7) Chickenwire
8) Ghengis
9) Arzenic
10) Bullet Tooth Tony
11) Dantski
12) East Wind
13) Gekko
14) Red Phoenix
15) Cu
16) Cave
17) Zer
18) Nemesis
19) Hitlow
20) Jeff The Meek
21) Dwarf
22) Jushius
23) Limp
24) Samuel
25) Adrenaline
26) Kugar
27) Grim
28) Monty
29) Magne
30) Paris
31) Bone
32) Karma
33) Ska
34) Naelot
35) Loial
36) Duan
37) Soulblighter
38) Erik
39) Neo
40) Dante
41) Browning
42) Absolut
43) Fire
44) Myrkridon
45) Acheron
46) Head
47) Henry
48) Killer
49) Rattlesnake
50) Raziel
51) Chron

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 06 Aug 2016, 22:51

lol troll post

Giant Killer General wrote: 1) removed all the bias you have for your friends / against your enemies / any team chemistry considerations

which you clearly have not

limp · Post by **limp** » 06 Aug 2016, 23:03

monty, erik, dwarf, and absolut are all absurdly high in these rankings.

DBSeeker · Post by **DBSeeker** » 06 Aug 2016, 23:14

ctrl+f "Zaknafein."

No Zaknafein found.

This list is biased. Zaknafein is the only player to be both a card carrying member of Northern Paladins & Namechangers.

You have to be at least a Top 50 player of all time to pull that off.

Phos · Post by **Phos** » 06 Aug 2016, 23:21

And Zak was on Civil too

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 06 Aug 2016, 23:22

Fire, Jushius, Xel, Sb, and a few others have also been on both Np and NC

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Aug 2016, 23:40

limp wrote:monty, erik, dwarf, and absolut are all absurdly high in these rankings.

Better? Or approximately where would you put them? Monty stays because he is easily the most underrated player ever. Ridiculously good in 2t play. Browning and absolut were solid roleplayers on Bullz in our mwc11 win. I know much less about Erik and Dwarf. Basing Erik mostly on him retiring BTT, and Dwarf for being one of the top LoA / BME figures as I understood it.

adrenaline wrote:lol troll post

Giant Killer General wrote: 1) removed all the bias you have for your friends / against your enemies / any team chemistry considerations
which you clearly have not

Adren I can only assume you are complaining about your own ranking. But you are more of a roleplayer, not a heavy hitter. And the key attribute of a solid roleplayer is great intelligence in knowing what to do, when and where to fight, etc, which isn't your strong suit.

I also said this:

Giant Killer General wrote: 5) A boost to very smart players who make great in-game decisions.

And every player ranked above you is a smarter player than you are.

It can't be a troll post if many people genuinely agree with your rough ranking here. But feel free to post your own list.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 06 Aug 2016, 23:55

I've heavy hit for nearly every team I've ever played for... Numerous championship teams, and have led tournaments in nearly every offensive category. I'm sure every player on that list would differ with yoir opinion of me as a role player. It's no secret that you've always been incredibly biased against me.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 00:14

I'm sure every player wouldn't differ with my opinion seeing as I have spoken with several people about this who agree with me. But by all means, show me these other people to back you up and agree with you. I haven't ever seen them. You keep saying I am always biased against you, but maybe you just always are going to think that because what I genuinely think is simply not what you want to hear.

I am not sure what leading in offensive categories has to do with anything. Emphasizing damage ratio is irrelevant to my position which is that you don't make smart decisions (and irrelevant in general regardless as I have written about in my myth statistics article). You know who else almost always has a top damage ratio and doesn't make smart decisions? Cruniac.

Which championship teams did you heavy hit for? TWS08? Kirk and Shaister were the heavy hitters. TWS09 and MWC09? Shaister and I heavy hit. MWC10? Maybe, I wouldn't know. Before TWS08 you probably heavy hit more, but then again NC didn't win those tournaments. There is a reason they brought in outside talent to help fill that role. Maybe you took heavy hitting roles in games sporadically, but I don't think you are going to find anyone to disagree with Shaister, Kirk, and myself being the clearly superior heavy hitters.

You were always the primary person promoting yourself as a heavy hitter, and even if sometimes you were treated that way to make you happy, it still doesn't sway my opinion about what the ideal role that best suits your play style is, which is as a roleplayer, not as a heavy hitter. And regardless of which role you are best suited for, it is still unquestioned that it is widely recognized that you have had issues with making intelligent decisions in game, while everyone above you on this list is pretty impeccable in this regard.

Make another list tho.

Revan · Post by **Revan** » 07 Aug 2016, 01:13

Best player ever:

Revan

-Carried every team ever participated in.
-Co-op Champ
-2 Manned Gladiators Armageddon on Legendary.
-Creates Myth stuff to play
-Plays 2t
-Plays FFA
-Trolls games
-Plays Co-Op
-Alt Tabs all the time during a Mazz game and still wins.
-100% not biased
-Launch The Bacon!
-Plays Fetchball
-Plays WW2
-Plays SF2
-Plays Civil War
-Plays MYTH!!
-Knows the difference between butter and I can't believe it's not butter.
-Texture gawd
-Cheese Steak Jimmy's
-I R Winner
-Cntrl Shift Plus

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 07 Aug 2016, 01:13

I really don't understand why you think I make dumb decisions in games. I'd certainly argue the opposite. As far as heavy hitting goes, I played that role on every incarnation of NC other than perhaps the tournament you played with us, and I'm sure I did some then too. And for that draft tourney or whatever it was that I was one your team... Even you gave me that role. You can argue these points all you want, but it doesnt make you right.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 01:21

Okay, yes you can heavy hit in a draft tournament in 2014 when the rest of the team are 2-3 ballers. Great point

.

You are clinging too much to this notion of heavy hitting or not, which isn't really the main point anyway. I could dig up films of bad mistakes you've made but I don't care to throw that much effort into it. I just have a few instances that stick out in my mind off the top of my head. You can argue all the points you want too, but it doesn't make you right either. I provided the reasoning for my position, and you did too. So that's all we can do. Everyone else can make up their mind about it given the reasoning we both provided. My position remains unchanged.

Who exactly do you think you are smarter than as a player that is above you on this list?

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 Aug 2016, 02:22

Adren was smart enough to cop 50$ off you unlike any other player on that list.

But Monte IV at 54 over any other civil player? Rohan and ViperX? Look, I'm not reputable in my myth history, evaluating myth skill, I know nothing as a standard approach. But in agreement with the guidelines, they miss the 2003-2012 emphasized window, MoR's top performances came on bungie.net, and the MoR players achievement in 1v1 and team play at any given time falls short of what Civil's players accomplished individually or as a team.

In accordance with removing all biases for your friends (MoR did invite you to at least one of their teams if not more ?) and all players were playing at their prime, you sit the MoR players on top of the Civil players? Why? Or unforeseen bias?

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 07 Aug 2016, 02:32

You could dig up films of every player on that list making bad mistake, yourself included. Pretty moot point when you consider the impact I've had in every tournament I've ever participated in.

sharkdrivingabus · Post by **sharkdrivingabus** » 07 Aug 2016, 02:39

One time back in 2000 when i was largely unknown, I ended up in a series of 2v2 with fire against viperx and monte iv. Fire and I destroyed them. Repeatedly. It wasn't even close.

Therefore monte does not belong on this list.

That is all.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 02:40

par73 wrote:Adren was smart enough to cop 50$ off you unlike any other player on that list.

An easy attempt to troll me, but of course the difference here is I could easily 1v1 adren any day with another money bet and get that money back and then some quite easily. So moot point. You make it sound like it was a grudge match for money, which would have been a far more impressive win since I would have the additional incentive to win some money, but it was not. I earned the money from winning a prior 1v1 tournament, didn't feel like keeping it, and was giving it back to the community to whoever beat me first without any risk to anyone losing money if they lost. If I didn't lose it to him, I would have lost it to someone else eventually anyway and we would just be having the same conversation about a different person. I also offered to 1v1 again for more money afterwards, he took off and ran for 6 months before he would play me again. So I think we all know who felt like the lucky one in that scenario. Or if you don't, then I am still happy to 1v1 anyone for money. I don't see any takers though. In any case, this is not strictly a 1v1 list (that's only a smaller part of it), its more of a 2-team list than anything, which is more of what we are talking about here anyway.

par73 wrote:But Monte IV at 54 over any other civil player? Rohan and ViperX? Look, I'm not reputable in my myth history, evaluating myth skill, I know nothing as a standard approach. But in agreement with the guidelines, they miss the 2003-2012 emphasized window, MoR's top performances came on bungie.net, and the MoR players achievement in 1v1 and team play at any given time falls short of what Civil's players accomplished individually or as a team.

In accordance with removing all biases for your friends (MoR did invite you to at least one of their teams if not more ?) and all players were playing at their prime, you sit the MoR players on top of the Civil players? Why? Or unforeseen bias?

Fair enough, just removed them from the list. No, civil definitely does not deserve to be on my list. Again, years 2003-2013.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 02:41

sharkdrivingabus wrote:One time back in 2000 when i was largely unknown, I ended up in a series of 2v2 with fire against viperx and monte iv. Fire and I destroyed them. Repeatedly. It wasn't even close.

Therefore monte does not belong on this list.

That is all.

I'll take you're word for it. Removed them. They were at the bottom anyway.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 02:43

adrenaline wrote:You could dig up films of every player on that list making bad mistake, yourself included. Pretty moot point when you consider the impact I've had in every tournament I've ever participated in.

Sure, still doesn't mean that some players don't make more mistakes than others, and worse mistakes too. Again, anyone can notice your lack of specificity in any of your points attempting to defend yourself. You are just trying to muddy the waters, which is a common type of weak argument. It only attempts to discredit my point without actually supporting your own point.

Get specific with who you feel you are a smarter player that is above you on the list (which I've asked like 3x now), and also get some specific people who have teamed with you to vouch for you with specific details and where they would put you on the list instead. If you do, then I will get some people to vouch for my perspective of you as well to show it is not just me. Or maybe some people will chime in on their own.

adrenaline wrote:Pretty moot point when you consider the impact I've had in every tournament I've ever participated in.

Again, another general, blanket statement with no specificity. No, I don't know what great impact you have had in every tournament you have participated in. I never felt it, and I teamed with you for a few tournaments. Give us a specific match or game in an important tournament match. For every good example you have to show, I will show you a bad one.

sasper · Post by **sasper** » 07 Aug 2016, 04:09

I'm quite impartial. i have to say that kirk was the best player. adren was the second best best. gkg was the 3rd best. chohan wasn't too bad. I'm surprised i couldn't find flatline on the list.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 04:15

sasper wrote:I'm quite impartial. i have to say that kirk was the best player. adren was the second best best. gkg was the 3rd best. chohan wasn't too bad. I'm surprised i couldn't find flatline on the list.

Any particular reasoning behind that? You should make a longer list perhaps as well to show us where you would put flatline.

Flatline · Post by **Flatline** » 07 Aug 2016, 05:05

Giant Killer General wrote:
sasper wrote:I'm quite impartial. i have to say that kirk was the best player. adren was the second best best. gkg was the 3rd best. chohan wasn't too bad. I'm surprised i couldn't find flatline on the list.
Any particular reasoning behind that? You should make a longer list perhaps as well to show us where you would put flatline.

You just have a hardon for me. I finished top 3 in the majority of mwcs I entered in the earlier years up to around 2k7.
I'm not surprised I'm not in a list made by you. grim's list is better.
MYrk is a far better player than his place in your list too.
In a real list I'd be rated somewhere slightly above or below henry.
Your list doesn't surprise me though and its kind of shit.
The fact your list doesn't have PHOD in it automatically makes it a shitty list too.

edit: rating crème above me, phod, henry, myrk, xel etc is LOL...crème wasn't even good. Now I've seen where you rated crème your list is retarded

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 07 Aug 2016, 06:18

I haven't gotten specific because I've been at work all night and have only been replying when I had a minute or two to spare. As for our 1v1 series... Don't even fucking pretend like you weren't taking it seriously. You demanded a rematch immediately and I told you I wouldn't play you again til you paid me. It certainly was no where close to 6 months... Maybe more like a week or two. And you act as if I'm no challenge 1v1 lol... Newsflash: nearly every time we've played I've either been pretty drunk or very high... And I still won plenty of games. When I was at my peak of 1v1 prowess, you were the only person other than Tirri, Shai and Kirk that could even give me a challenge. I've wrecked all other notables on your list.

Edit: except Chohan, who I only 1v1ed a few times in like 2006, well before my 1v1 prime.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 07 Aug 2016, 09:22

Crème,Xel Homer,Dante, Ramirez, Migraine

At least 4 of those players need to be removed for: Naelot,Duan,Kugar & Neo

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 12:25

Flatline wrote: The fact your list doesn't have PHOD in it automatically makes it a shitty list too.

Well blame grim, he didn't have it in his list and I started with his. I merely forgot about him, I will add him.

Flatline wrote: edit: rating crème above me, phod, henry, myrk, xel etc is LOL...crème wasn't even good. Now I've seen where you rated crème your list is retarded

I agree, I am removing some of these crappy NP role players that were only on there by default because of grim's list.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 12:36

Nah, it was a good 6 months adren, I remember distinctly. I did take that 1v1 seriously but I also played when I should not have with only like 4 hours of sleep the night before because I wanted to play but no one would play me for like 2 weeks. Also I don't think it had a win by 2 rule, which it should have, as I recall the score was a very close 3-2. I am aware that is an excuse, but it does explain why that is literally the only 1v1 series you have ever beat me in. How else can you explain why that result could never be replicated? Our most recent 1v1s were in the Myth Fighting Championship (my 1v1 tournament in 2013) and I won 3-0 matches against you, with scores 3-1, 3-0, and 4-2 respectively. Not even close.

In any case, its not a 1v1 list. It's primarily a 2t list. I agree with your assessment that tirri, kirk, shaister, chohan and I were better than you. But it wasn't like you were that close. You were in the tier below us. There is a definite gap there as we would beat you very consistently. If you were drunk or high for the 6 or so years we 1v1'd each other, then that is one hell of an excuse and it really can only further prove the point that you aren't that good if you never showed any better potential.

Uhh, you have not wrecked all other notables on this list. But again, its not a 1v1 list. Somehow we made this about 1v1. It's not a 1v1 list.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 12:42

Asmodian wrote:Crème,Xel Homer,Dante, Ramirez, Migraine

At least 4 of those players need to be removed for: Naelot,Duan,Kugar & Neo

Revised. Can anyone else vouche for Naelot and Neo? I don't remember them being that good but I didn't know them well.

BIG KROK V8 SS · Post by **BIG KROK V8 SS** » 07 Aug 2016, 12:50

In all seriousness, how is anything truly ranked, because different people peaked at different times. But since I've been the most dominant player for the longest period of time, across all metrics of the game (i.e. 3rd party, Raid, solo, etc) then my accolades put me at #1 because of my successes and accomplishments.

Tiers:

1. BIG KROK V8 SS
2. GKG, Chohan
3. Shai, Zer, BTT, Adrenaline, Erik, Nemesis
4. Rabican, Drizzt, Chickenwire, Ghengis
.
.
.
393. Dac, Pogue, Asmodian, Grim
394. Edulus, Malsleizure, Ducky
395. Myrk

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 13:35

Good suggestions from everyone, keep them coming. The list is coming along. It does start getting rather difficult after around 25-30 or so.

For the rest who are butthurt about their placement, seriously just make your own list. I am sure you can rank me super low or leave me off of it entirely and I wouldn't be offended. I think we all would just like to see more lists from people in general.

limp · Post by **limp** » 07 Aug 2016, 13:35

Naelot and Neo were excellent, Kugar as well, deserving of the list.

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 07 Aug 2016, 13:54

I would have Nem in the top 10, he's virtually the only person aside from Tirri and CW to win multiple FFA tournaments. He was one of the very few people who consistently took games off Chohan and he was also a MDQ and coop champ.

I'd also have kept Xel in the middle of the list, he was one of the main reasons for HoA turning things around in 05 and TBH he was more important for NP than Gekko.

Also add Savanarola because he was the only good deer player.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 14:10

Yea but this list is only based on 1v1 and 2t (moreso 2t). FFA would be a very different list since even fewer people from this list competed in ffa than even 1v1, and ffa itself is a very different play style than either 1v1 or 2t. I also agree nem was a skilled 1v1er and would be ranked higher if based on that alone, but again, it's more about 2t than 1v1. MDQ and coop don't matter for me, and even if it did, it's so different it just needs another list. This list is for regular myth in pvp.

Duno about xel, I'd have others chime in on that one. Important how? We are looking for simply the best actual 2t players. No way he is more skilled than Gekko. Being better 1 year doesn't take priority over not being better in every other year.

tirri · Post by **tirri** » 07 Aug 2016, 14:28

i'll address the faulty top on the list at a later time if i have time.

however the placing of np players in general seem completely wacky. it would be interesting to see rab rank np players, in fact someone call him immediately to get his input on things.
to me players like cw, dante, jushius and sb were almost interchangeable with cw maybe a little ahead while jushius had the best bc power but tunnelvisioned more than the other 3. when the others were active, to my recollection gekko was never considered to be ahead even though he is great. so just because of his longevity he seems absurdly high compared to other np's who were seemingly ahead of him during their whole active mything years.

it's funny how much these lists have changed after a player like dante stopped playing much because when most of the nps were active, i don't think arz or grim for example were ever considered better than them. i don't think they were either. playing against tcox was a well known automatic 5-0 win for np.

most np's never considered fire much more than a role player so him being ahead of jushius and dante just seems wrong and can only be accounted to longevity even though he accomplished pretty little during the later years. dante will definitely turn in his grave when players like magne, acheron etc are ranked ahead of him.

I REPEAT, CALL RABICAN

VieForPower · Post by **VieForPower** » 07 Aug 2016, 14:32

You're all living in the fucking past anyway. Stfu

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 07 Aug 2016, 15:23

tirri wrote:it's funny how much these lists have changed after a player like dante stopped playing much because when most of the nps were active, i don't think arz or grim for example were ever considered better than them. i don't think they were either. playing against tcox was a well known automatic 5-0 win for np.

You don't think this has anything to do with the fact he was on a stacked NP team? Honestly players in myth get more credit than I have seen in any other single game for being a role player on a stacked team, it's pretty absurd.

I mean it's not that hard to look that good with Chickenwire,Soublighter,Rabican,Tirri,Gekko,Red Phoenix & Jushius (in his glory days) on your team. As a role player just don't suicide on a team like that and people are going to rate you 4 balls: Xel, Dante, Migraine, Trixta & Fire all fit this bill for me. Cave & Arzenic are definitely better than that group of players. Not everyone leaves their roots early in their myth career to become a glory chaser Tirri!

It is weird to see how high grim is being rated. I always thought of him as a good role player, never someone who has ever been capable of heavy hitting against the top teams.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 15:28

So I am getting mixed reports about dante, jushius, sb, and xel.

Personally I remember distinctly reviewing films from old MWC's for a related discussion on this. I believe it was the MWC04 finals of NP vs BME. I remember being impressed by Gekko's performance, arguably the best on the team at the time, and I also remember being disappointed by Jushius' performance. Perhaps other Np roleplayers as well.

My concern is a lot of people are basing this off of old memories of the original event happening, rather than more recent film reviews. I can tell you that things look very very different when you review the old films today.

That being said, I am all for reviewing films from MWC matches to clear up some of the mess if anyone can suggest some.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 07 Aug 2016, 19:48

Our 1v1 was definitely a win by 2... As per your rules it was first to 5, win by 2. I won 5-3. And I played you again shortly after you paid me. Aren't the forums from that year still up somewhere? I'm sure there's a drama thread about it... You and EW had a long argument about the outcome of the match, as I recall. Also, if anyone has the films, the KG lmoth game was epic... Came down to a dorf 1v1 around the flag in SD.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Aug 2016, 20:12

I'll take your word for it on the 5-3, that sounds right actually. You did not play me again shortly afterward however. In any case, doesn't really matter.

DBSeeker · Post by **DBSeeker** » 07 Aug 2016, 23:39

No Enigman?

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 Aug 2016, 23:46

I heard Jushius was truly inspirational for the myth community with his Archer-dodging play in 2001, leading to a meta change of dodging archers post mwc2k1. Can the Nps or others confirm?

Also I'm here to vouche for Storm over Chron due to his impact on the tcox 2006 team when we needed someone to step up and captain and he did so admirably, leading us to become unexpected Top Bracket Champions, only to be defeated by the challenging team in the finals!

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 08 Aug 2016, 01:39

Fire was a solid player. Solid 1v1 too. Surprised no one has mentioned Judas or Apollo.

Shaitan · Post by **Shaitan** » 08 Aug 2016, 03:31

all lists are bs as i'm not on them.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » 09 Aug 2016, 01:35

shaitan ~the other shai

toynbee · Post by **toynbee** » 09 Aug 2016, 07:06

Where is jkap? Where is Sandman? Where is Andir? Where is bunny?

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 09 Aug 2016, 12:14

Everyone take note of how after several days, adrenaline still cannot name a single player ranked well above him that he would consider himself a smarter player than. Or any specific tournament match performance that supports his claim.

Also take note of how not a single person has raised an issue with adrenaline's ranking, even after dozens of other suggestions (both on these forums and in the lobby) to adjust other people's rankings, yet it is somehow "my agenda" against him (or at least so adrenaline claims).

I rest my case.

shadow · Post by **shadow** » 09 Aug 2016, 16:07

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 09 Aug 2016, 23:57

I can't speak to around 02-05, for a lot of these people somehow considered 4 ball when I returned in 05, never showed anything higher than the standard "3-ball role player on a good team" schtick (of which I am familiar). Throw them on a team together without a great captain/motivator and/or great heavy, and their top outcome would be 3 (of 5) at best. Maybe there's a ton of performances I'm not aware of, but the dropoff for many seems too steep for their ranking. There's also too much undo influence by the hangers-on from that era, people that were mediocre but were pals with good players, so they talk up the whole crew, then the bystanders get brought up just by proximity.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 10 Aug 2016, 00:07

^^^ accurate

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 10 Aug 2016, 00:25

There's definitely some of that, no doubt. Old hype sinks into the subconscious bias of people. I notice it particularly when people start talking about the NP roleplayers. I looked at the old mwc sites and most of them were ranked 3 balls back then in 03-04, so god knows what they would have been ranked later on. Not to mention the films from the mwc finals matches that they do not look impressive in at all.

Do you see any specifically bad instances of that in this list though?

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 10 Aug 2016, 02:38

Nothing that hasn't been addressed. For the same reason I don't usually try to defend old mythers, I also won't downgrade them, unless (in both cases) I was personally involved with them.

I am probably also not allowing for a shorter peak time that you may have, but part of that proximity bias isn't just associations, but with time. Let's say a guy has a 2-year span where he balls out in 1 2t tourney, makes a high finish in another, and competes adequately in a couple of others or some ffa/1v1 stuff. At the end of that 2 years, he's going be to considered at that time a great player (see next para). That is going to retroactively and artificially elevate his rating for at least one year prior. And as we've seen, people can coast for multiple years after a reputation-boosting event without ever really justifying it.

This occurs whether or not that current 2-year evaluation is even correct. The most shit is talked immediately after games and matches when people are emotional, and usually defensive, so the really obvious stuff, mistake or triumph, gets overemphasized in the collective memory, when really, it would take a fairly substantial and objective evaluation to know how everything actually shook out.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 10 Aug 2016, 11:10

smarter than? probably, but who fucking cares. better than? nearly all of them. I've proven it time and time again in tourney games. what more do you really need than that? if you think i'm gonna dig through archives of films to dig up examples to prove a point that I already know is true, you're more of an idiot than I thought. But hey, just to humor you a bit... I'll go through the list.

1) GKG - $$$
2) Chohan - hard to argue this one. best player of all time.
3) Tirri - great player for sure. my equal in 1v1 and one of the most decorated players of all time. 2nd best player ever, behind Chohan.
4) Shaister - greatest TFL player ever and definitely among the best on M2 for sure. I became better than him at 1v1 later in his career, but he has been at the top for so long that yes, I consider him better overall. Possibly the smartest player on the list.
5) Kirk - definitely a beast
6) Rabican - arguably the greatest captain of all time, but his reputation is bigger than his actual skills. I don't think I've had a problem beating him in game in many many years.
7) Chickenwire - great role player but I was beating him 1v1 as far back as 2007 or 2008
8) Ghengis - ya, very good player. beat him pretty handily in a 1v1 tournament though.
9) Dantski - all round great player but I'm not sure if I'd consider him better than me when push comes to shove. Except at Fetchball. He is phenomenal at fetchball.
10) Arzenic - very consistently good, still don't think his skill ceiling is as high as mine though.
11) Bullet Tooth Tony - he was really good... for a couple years. A long time ago.
12) East Wind - I love EW and consider him and equal on the battlefield. I'd personally put him higher on this list.
13) Gekko - very intelligent player but I really don't think he's better than me. As in, I'd don't think I'd lose many fights to him straight up in a game.
14) Cu - very smart player for sure but better than me? Dunno about that.
15) Cave - what? you're kidding me right? Overrated. Have never even really seen him as a big challenge in game. Played him in a bunch of 2v2s and 3v3s a couple years ago and really was not impressed. I mean, he was good, but not among the best ever.
16) Zer - LOL what? Responsible for probably the biggest big game fuckup in history, and I've manhandled him twice in 1v1 tournies. Like, it wasn't even close.
17) Nemesis - There was a time when he was among the best, but it was short-lived. I'm sure his Aussie ping held him back a lot. Probably could have been one of the best ever if he chose to be.
18) Samuel - Great player, would definitely put him a few spots higher... but I still don't think he's better than me. Have also beaten him in a 1v1 tourney.
19) Limp - cmon now... I like Limp and all, but he is not a better player than me.
20) Hitlow - really? ya he was a good captain back in the early 2000s, but he really wasn't THAT good of a player.
21) Jeff The Meek - never really knew Jeff. Heard he was really good though.
22) Dwarf - no
23) Kugar - no
24) Red Phoenix - by 2001 standards? he was really good in an era when nobody was actually good.