Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

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Zak
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Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Zak » 07 Sep 2013, 21:53

I for one enjoyed this map, although I also made it and won it during my match.

Please praise this map for its genius, or criticize it for its complexity, in this thread.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Myrk » 07 Sep 2013, 23:16

It's a shitty map that shouldn't have been picked at all really. I hope this is never played ever again.
Really stupid unit set, and the camera is zoomed in at a ridiculous level. I understand this map is ripping off Thaw for the terrain, and although the camera height sucks on Thaw too, it's a light map and isn't full of units that can instakill your army.
I really wish we'd play more tried-and-true stuff and stop throwing in shitty novelty maps like this that noone even likes. Dead of Winter, Cracks/Clash, and Drowned Empire, all tried and true good maps that I dont think saw one single use in MWC, which is really sad considing a lot of worthless shit maps were picked.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Zak » 07 Sep 2013, 23:35

Could you elaborate on the unit set being stupid? I heard that the 1 myrk, 1 trow, 1 forest giant set was popular.

As for the zoomed in map, you can thank asmodian/tirri for that. They believe that regardless of the unit trade, people should be unable to zoom out as far as they want. What are Instakill units?

Dead of Winter is tried and truly boring, thats why it isn't played anymore. Frozen Cloudspine is a way better version of clash, however I would definitely prefer clash over that shitty Hills of the Crow (Clash) assassin map. I think Clash NUT KOTM should be a map pick in the next MWC. Drowned Empire? Starting to think you just like maps with tons of melee, pus, and dudding dwarves.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby par73 » 07 Sep 2013, 23:51

i think myrk is absolutely right in every thing he just said, which is funny coz I usually can't understand anything his fat mouth foams to the surface.

but of course i only read the first sentence in all of his posts anyway.


having ambient units cluttered units all over the map, having ambient units share the color of a player-team, having a terrible overhead map, and not to mention cluttered junk all over the map, is very 1999 esq in terms of shitty map making.

I would expect better from Zak's map making team; but then again the only thing that "team" can ever do is rob other peoples meshes and ideas, then twist said meshes and ideas into something so obscenely retarded only a joke of a Tournament Organizer would actually consider using them in their tournament.
See Zak and Asmo's TO record and experience for more details.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby adrenaline » 07 Sep 2013, 23:58

yes the ambient units all over the map is fucking retarded. also, the color of the map in general is pretty terrible... makes the OH map almost useless.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Zak » 08 Sep 2013, 00:06

par73 wrote:having ambient units cluttered units all over the map, having ambient units share the color of a player-team, having a terrible overhead map, and not to mention cluttered junk all over the map, is very 1999 esq in terms of shitty map making.



The ambient units are just part of the map, its up to the player to adapt and thrive amongst the chaos.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Zak » 08 Sep 2013, 00:08

adrenaline wrote:yes the ambient units all over the map is fucking retarded. also, the color of the map in general is pretty terrible... makes the OH map almost useless.


The ambient units are just different than what you're used to, not retarded.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby par73 » 08 Sep 2013, 00:26

what are the chances that Zak is different than what people are used to, and not retarded?

Weather Channel: Low 20s, High 30s

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Myrk » 08 Sep 2013, 00:39

Zak wrote:Could you elaborate on the unit set being stupid? I heard that the 1 myrk, 1 trow, 1 forest giant set was popular.


That in particular is the dumb aspect of this unit set. No other maps have these units together, noone has played with these units together, and it's not particularly fun to play a tournament match with novelty unitsets that you won't play before the match (since noone practices on this dead game) and probably won't ever play again.

Zak wrote:As for the zoomed in map, you can thank asmodian/tirri for that. They believe that regardless of the unit trade, people should be unable to zoom out as far as they want. What are Instakill units?


I'm talking about something like a dorf hero on high ground that can kill your whole army in 1 hit that you can't see unless you spend a lot of time looking around for them with the ridiculous zoom level. This more than anything else makes this map bad.

Zak wrote:Dead of Winter is tried and truly boring, thats why it isn't played anymore. Frozen Cloudspine is a way better version of clash, however I would definitely prefer clash over that shitty Hills of the Crow (Clash) assassin map. I think Clash NUT KOTM should be a map pick in the next MWC. Drowned Empire? Starting to think you just like maps with tons of melee, pus, and dudding dwarves.


So you hate the stock maps, my point about them being better than a lot of the crap that gets picked lately in tournaments stands regardless. I don't really need to argue about DoW and DE being good maps, people who don't like them probably just suck with the styg/warr combo and rely on dwarves/archers too much.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Zak » 08 Sep 2013, 01:05

Myrk wrote:
Zak wrote:Could you elaborate on the unit set being stupid? I heard that the 1 myrk, 1 trow, 1 forest giant set was popular.


That in particular is the dumb aspect of this unit set. No other maps have these units together, noone has played with these units together, and it's not particularly fun to play a tournament match with novelty unitsets that you won't play before the match (since noone practices on this dead game) and probably won't ever play again.


Poison Holiday has a mesh used in MWC that has trow, forest giants, and giant spiders. But you're correct, nobody has used trow/fg/myrk giants in the same map! There is a first time for everything, and its not fair to blame a map just because you didn't practice it before the match. Its not like they affected the outcome of the game.


Myrk wrote:
Zak wrote:As for the zoomed in map, you can thank asmodian/tirri for that. They believe that regardless of the unit trade, people should be unable to zoom out as far as they want. What are Instakill units?


I'm talking about something like a dorf hero on high ground that can kill your whole army in 1 hit that you can't see unless you spend a lot of time looking around for them with the ridiculous zoom level. This more than anything else makes this map bad.


Any time you're pushing uphill on a map with dwarf heroes, you should probably spend some time looking for them. Anyways, there is no reason to even go near that giant hill, since a win is just as viable with all your units on the north hill.

Myrk wrote:
Zak wrote:Dead of Winter is tried and truly boring, thats why it isn't played anymore. Frozen Cloudspine is a way better version of clash, however I would definitely prefer clash over that shitty Hills of the Crow (Clash) assassin map. I think Clash NUT KOTM should be a map pick in the next MWC. Drowned Empire? Starting to think you just like maps with tons of melee, pus, and dudding dwarves.


So you hate the stock maps, my point about them being better than a lot of the crap that gets picked lately in tournaments stands regardless. I don't really need to argue about DoW and DE being good maps, people who don't like them probably just suck with the styg/warr combo and rely on dwarves/archers too much.


People almost never play DoW, and DE is played a lot less than other stock maps. That said, I don't hate stock maps, I just think those aren't particularly good examples of them. Desert and Trow are 2 stock maps used frequently in MWC, because they are good. To say that people who don't like DoW or DE suck with stygs/warrs, is like me saying people who don't like the tain suck with fetch and dwarf hero combo. I've made plenty of unit trades that incorporate stygs/warrs, however you'd hate them because they are part of a unit trade you're "unfamiliar" with.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby par73 » 08 Sep 2013, 01:11

The way Zak defends the map pick you would think that he helped design the map himself. Oh wait.

Biases unraveled.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Zak » 08 Sep 2013, 01:12

What is there to even design? I just changed the color of the map and switched the starting spot.

Let the conspiracy theories begin.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby par73 » 08 Sep 2013, 01:15

So you designed an alternate coloring of the map, and alternated the start spots, and added a whole bunch of useless shit with no actual strategic reasoning for it's placement; but it's just a conspiracy theory that you 'designed' any of this, from your point of view, right?

:roll: :lol:

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Zak » 08 Sep 2013, 01:28

par73 wrote:So you designed an alternate coloring of the map, and alternated the start spots, and added a whole bunch of useless shit with no actual strategic reasoning for it's placement; but it's just a conspiracy theory that you 'designed' any of this, from your point of view, right?

:roll: :lol:


You're saying I designed the entire map.

I'm saying I made a slight alteration to a commonly used MWC map.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby NewMutator » 08 Sep 2013, 01:52

Something I found strange (the hard way actually) was that dwarves don't start with their satchel charges. If they did I think that would make the krid giant more valuable!

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Zak » 08 Sep 2013, 01:57

NewMutator wrote:Something I found strange (the hard way actually) was that dwarves don't start with their satchel charges. If they did I think that would make the krid giant more valuable!


Well 24 thrall or 12 bre might be more valuable than 1 myrk giant, but the winning teams both managed to somehow make that myrk giant work out better for them!

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby HeadHunterKC » 08 Sep 2013, 02:20

I enjoy the map quite a bit and would like to see it played more in order to test its limits.
At this point in the history of The Tain I would like to see the NPCs disappear. I agree with you Zak on the chaotic element to it, but if its a make or break component to the community in whether or not they will even play the game because of it, then I think its worth removing.
Who cares about the map zoom you fucking weak ass cry baby Mythers.
Dwarves need satchels, nothing manly about satchel-less dwarves.
This map deserves more attention from the community, but again, I don't think that willl happen until every last NPC is removed.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Zak » 08 Sep 2013, 02:25

Okay well I'm making a v3, I can remove some NPCs I guess

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Zak » 08 Sep 2013, 02:33

HeadHunterKC wrote:Dwarves need satchels, nothing manly about satchel-less dwarves.


Dwarves are already pretty good on those hills without satchels. They're more vulnerable when they don't have satchels.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Myrk » 08 Sep 2013, 02:54

Zak wrote:Poison Holiday has a mesh used in MWC that has trow, forest giants, and giant spiders. But you're correct, nobody has used trow/fg/myrk giants in the same map! There is a first time for everything, and its not fair to blame a map just because you didn't practice it before the match. Its not like they affected the outcome of the game.


Well how do you suggest people practice for this exactly, when noone even plays Myth at all anymore except for tournament matches. What's the point of testing your myth skill in a tournament match if it's all about gimmick unit sets that have never been played.

Zak wrote:Any time you're pushing uphill on a map with dwarf heroes, you should probably spend some time looking for them. Anyways, there is no reason to even go near that giant hill, since a win is just as viable with all your units on the north hill.


This wasn't personally a problem for me, my team on that map for some reason really wanted to fight in bad terrain. I'm just saying in general the zoom sucks.

Zak wrote:To say that people who don't like DoW or DE suck with stygs/warrs, is like me saying people who don't like the tain suck with the trow + fg + myrk giant combo.


Edited what you said for what the map really boils down to...
I suppose we can agree to disagree, although everyone knows DoW and DE are all about styg/warr, weak archers and dudding dwarves, and there's no reason to dislike that map unless you dislike those units since neither map has terribly unbalanced terrain like say Mockingbird

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Asmodian » 08 Sep 2013, 04:45

par73 wrote:
only a joke of a Tournament Organizer would actually consider using them in their tournament.
See Zak and Asmo's TO record and experience for more details.


I have only ever used 2 zak alternated maps ever, this and calvary [which is very good] so I have no clue what "TO record" you are speaking of. You also realize you have used more zak maps than anyone else during your winter tournament? How many drugs have you done that has made your memory so awful?

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Zak » 08 Sep 2013, 05:53

Asmodian wrote:
par73 wrote:
only a joke of a Tournament Organizer would actually consider using them in their tournament.
See Zak and Asmo's TO record and experience for more details.


I have only ever used 2 zak alternated maps ever, this and calvary [which is very good] so I have no clue what "TO record" you are speaking of. You also realize you have used more zap maps than anyone else during your winter tournament? How many drugs have you done that has made your memory so awful?


MWC had a shitload of my plugins as well

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby limp » 08 Sep 2013, 06:34

i would love to see a jungle version of DoW with a trow set and as well as oasis DE with fetch and trow

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Dantski » 08 Sep 2013, 11:57

I think the units on the map were fine, the recoloured map is ugly though and ambient units that can attack you if you accidentally hit them is retarded and isn't a part of any other commonly played map.

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Zak » 08 Sep 2013, 18:24

Dantski wrote:I think the units on the map were fine, the recoloured map is ugly though and ambient units that can attack you if you accidentally hit them is retarded and isn't a part of any other commonly played map.


It can happen on Majestic Falls!

Also that didn't occur in either of the matches, so is it really an issue?

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Re: Rant about the Tain (Manly) here

Postby Dantski » 08 Sep 2013, 23:48

Best to fix a problem before it causes issues. Its not like having random units that could attack you on the map, makes it better in any way.


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