GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

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BIG KROK V8 SS
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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby BIG KROK V8 SS » 10 Aug 2016, 11:31

Judas is one of the most underrated players of all time. He definitely needs named as a top 1v1er as well.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby adrenaline » 10 Aug 2016, 11:50

He was a really good player ya, but he wasn't THAT good at 1v1... he was like, Raziel level at 1v1. (source: played him many times).

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 10 Aug 2016, 11:55

adrenaline wrote:smarter than? probably, but who fucking cares.


well see this is your problem. you keep bringing 1v1 up over and over again after I already said multiple times it was more about large 2t ability. so actually, yea, smarts is a pretty big fucking deal for 2t ability. Yes, you were better in 1v1 because there was no gametype or map positioning to expose your weaknesses. Your lack of aggression also doesn't come into play as much in 1v1 when your opponent has no choice but to fight you. Furthermore, multitasking ability is what sets apart most good 1v1'ers from the rest, and in large 2t that advantage is also greatly diminished when dealing with just small squads. You would have been higher up on a 1v1 list, but this is not a 1v1 list.

adrenaline wrote:I've proven it time and time again in tourney games.


Again, no example. Just another blanket statement. Give specifics. What tourney? What match? What game?

adrenaline wrote:what more do you really need than that? if you think i'm gonna dig through archives of films to dig up examples to prove a point that I already know is true, you're more of an idiot than I thought.


I already said multiple times - cite an important tourney match that you know you did well in, or have anyone argue that they think you should be ranked higher and why. Notice how literally nobody else is saying anything about your ranking, and yet you want to whine about it like it is my personal agenda against you. NOBODY thinks you should be ranked higher. Why do you think that is? Also don't you find it interesting that after your entire mything career you are having such a difficult time thinking of any great performances of yours? Delusional much?

Funny how you cite zer's fuckups but don't acknowledge any of your own.

Yes I would rather have anyone on that list above you on my team than you. They are SMARTER. Apparently everyone else agrees with me.

Do tell us adren, where would you put yourself on the list? You act as if you would be in the top 5 or something, or at least top 10. That's such a joke. YOU AREN'T THAT GOOD IN 2 TEAM.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Zak » 10 Aug 2016, 13:06

Even i beat zer in a 1v1 tournament

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby adrenaline » 10 Aug 2016, 13:30

Giant Killer General wrote:Your lack of aggression also doesn't come into play as much in 1v1 when your opponent has no choice but to fight you.


Lack of aggression? What the fuck are you on about? I am VERY aggressive in 2 team games, unless my captain tells me not to be.

Giant Killer General wrote:Again, no example. Just another blanket statement. Give specifics. What tourney? What match? What game?


Again, you are an idiot. I usually have the (or among the) highest dmg/most kills in any given match in pretty much every tournament in the last several years. Here are some examples since you are so insistant:

http://gateofstorms.net/tournaments/MWC2013/rounds/227
http://gateofstorms.net/tournaments/MWC2013/rounds/119
http://gateofstorms.net/tournaments/MWC2014/rounds/370
http://gateofstorms.net/tournaments/MWC2015/rounds/396

You can sort the stats yourself. If you really want to see more, go look at old MWC films... I'm sure there are many many more examples.

Giant Killer General wrote:Funny how you cite zer's fuckups but don't acknowledge any of your own.


I only cited Zer's because it was a big game, and you seemed to be trying to make the point that I fuck up alot. I can't really think of any time I've fucked up large in a big tourney match. I'd love for you to try to find an example though... the burden of proof is on you, since you made the claim.

Giant Killer General wrote:Yes I would rather have anyone on that list above you on my team than you. They are SMARTER. Apparently everyone else agrees with me.


Who is everyone else? You've said it yourself, nobody else has said a damn thing here. Way to argue against yourself. You are the epitome of smart.

Giant Killer General wrote:YOU AREN'T THAT GOOD IN 2 TEAM.


Uhhhhhh... yes, I am. Perhaps you are forgetting the TWS finals? You lost. I won. Does that mean you aren't that good in 2 team either? Or everyone else on your team? Or how about the many finalist/championship teams I've played a large role in the success of? Seriously... where the fuck do you even get off making a statement like that?

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 10 Aug 2016, 16:32

Again, falling back on your so-called superior dmg ratios only further proves my point. You think dmg ratios = performance. You know who tend to be the players that are overly passive? The ones that care too much about dmg ratios. This is why you are a passive player, which is also why you are not a heavy hitter. It is also why you fuck up sometimes.

Case in point, a tournament a few years ago you were either on a WTC type team or playing against one, on one of the meshes for sieve (maybe railroad) and the gametype was lmoth. Most of your team was dead, you still had all of your force sitting on a flank to the flag, and in the last couple minutes you don't even attempt to push the flag (not a great chance of winning, but some change). Completely oblivious of gametype - check. lack of aggression - check. And that is just the clearest example that sticks out in my memory.

Dmg ratio doesn't mean shit, let's see actual films. You are right, I am not going to try and dig up films either. Oh well. You are the one that cares, not me.

There is no burden of proof, but you are the one that wants to change wide-spread perception of your abilities. So I guess that's on you.

Who is everyone else? try a lot of your NC teammates. It was a running joke inside the team that you needed to be babysat with someone to keep an eye on you in-game to make sure you didn't do anything too stupid. I would imagine people like EW and limp would agree. There are several other names that won't speak up and probably don't want me to mention them because they want to be nice to you. They know that they have to treat you with kids gloves in any critique of your abilities because of what a sensitive nancy you are about it.

adrenaline wrote:Uhhhhhh... yes, I am. Perhaps you are forgetting the TWS finals? You lost. I won. Does that mean you aren't that good in 2 team either? Or everyone else on your team? Or how about the many finalist/championship teams I've played a large role in the success of? Seriously... where the fuck do you even get off making a statement like that?


again, another attempt to muddy the waters to distract the issue of you, deflecting onto me instead in an act of desperation clinging onto a losing argument. Are you suggesting that you are a better player than me? Even if you genuinely wanted to suggest that, I wouldn't care. I am secure with myself and my abilities. You reek of insecurity.

That's the difference between you and me. I make a list that you aren't happy with, you get all butthurt about it. You go make a list, I don't care. It would only further to discredit yourself, not me.

And where do I get off making a statement like that? How about after teaming with you for several tournaments. It is hard to get much more qualified than that. There are plenty of people on this list that I do not know very well because I did not play much with them. You are not one of them.

most people with adren's record would have been honored to be listed in the mid 20's on this list. but nope, not good enough for adren. delusional, butthurt-central up in here.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby tirri » 10 Aug 2016, 17:29

It's hard to issue some problems in the list because people seem to weight different skills completely differently. GKG was arguing that grim's list had a misleading name. Then why is this list named top mythers of all time with such a big emphasis on 2 team play. For years and years 2 team wasn't considered that much more important than other types and it's funny it's getting recognition in the later years when very few teams were active.

I have a really hard time seeing cu at 14th against nem at 17th for example. Nem was a complete force in all game types all by himself for several years while cu has never been anything like that. Does his super passive, mistake free team play in myth's later years on some really strong teams really put him that high? Same goes for dantski at 9th.

that's why I have a hard time answering dantski's poll too cause there are so many people i'd have higher and so many people i'd have lower that I don't feel like I want to start comparing adren individually against all of them right now.

Scorpio was such a great player early on that he should be on the list, he was also great in all game types and dominated myth 2 1v1 ladder for a long time. Definitely ahead of naelot for example who only played longer but wasn't at an especially high level later on

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Cutard » 10 Aug 2016, 17:45

fuck you tirri i'll never forgive you for this


Dantski - Today at 12:41 PM
ehh i shouldn't have been that high on the list anyway

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 10 Aug 2016, 17:53

tirri wrote:GKG was arguing that grim's list had a misleading name. Then why is this list named top mythers of all time with such a big emphasis on 2 team play.


I put my name in the name of this list. It is my list. I also state this clearly right away in the post, and encourage others to make their own because it is so subjective. So the name of mine cannot be inaccurate, it is my list. It reflects my opinion. But at least I give some detail on the background behind how my opinion is formed.

Meanwhile, grim's list attempted to make the claim of being a definitive, objective list, even though it was really just a list made by grim using his own subjective metrics.

I am sure you are smart enough to understand the difference between these two things.

tirri wrote:For years and years 2 team wasn't considered that much more important than other types and it's funny it's getting recognition in the later years when very few teams were active.


I think you are the only person attempt to make this argument. I think the vast majority of the community agrees that mwc's (and large 2-team tournaments in general) are the pinnacle of myth, so they deserve a special place at the top of myth history. large 2-team is the only mode of play that has the incredible level of depth in its coordination, communication, and strategy. This is what makes myth truly unique above and beyond any other game. If myth was restricted to just ffa or 1v1, or even small 2-team, then myth would not be nearly the same.

tirri wrote:I have a really hard time seeing cu at 14th against nem at 17th for example. Nem was a complete force in all game types all by himself for several years while cu has never been anything like that. Does his super passive, mistake free team play in myth's later years on some really strong teams really put him that high? Same goes for dantski at 9th.


Cu is an incredibly intelligent player, and possesses one very unique trait that perhaps less than a dozen other mythers possess: he understands strategy very well and can even make good strategies for his team. This means his positive influence on teams may be more invisible in the game, but this is such an incredibly rare trait that it should not be ignored. His only fault is that he let himself play 2nd fiddle to shaister in forming strategies, even though he had the superior eye for the game. This is why he is little known for this ability. But this is why he has such a high ranking.

As for Dantski, he doesn't have the same level of strategic ability, but a super smart player nonetheless, and obviously more dangerous in-game.

Really there just needs to be multiple lists with various popular guidelines and people can gravitate to the list built on the guidelines that they more agree with.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Cutard » 10 Aug 2016, 18:43

Alright I no longer play so I may as well comment on this.

The passivity criticism describing me was always interesting, perhaps valid in my individual play. During tournaments my focus was recruiting players that we needed, coming up with and adjusting some strats, getting people on the right units/roles and more or less back-seat capping during games. Running around the map with very mobile units calling out rushes, adjustments, playing the gametype was my thing, never really worrying about me personally BCing something for the sake of it unless there was an opportunity I couldn't pass up. NC post '06 always had a plethora of players who were more than capable of crushing the other team if they had an advantageous position, that was my job as I saw it. As far as ranking goes: as GKG said, it depends on what you value more.

As far as Adren goes: if he was a complete liability and a dumbass as some make him out to be he wouldn't have been on the team for very long. Could he have been more aware? Yeah, at times he vision tunneled perhaps but focusing on the big picture didn't really seem to be his thing and we put him in positions to maximize what he excelled at. Really bad at posting though, jesus.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby tirri » 10 Aug 2016, 18:47

cu and dantski both know the jig is up.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Cutard » 10 Aug 2016, 18:49

If I go I'm taking arz with me.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 10 Aug 2016, 18:53

Cutard wrote:As far as Adren goes: if he was a complete liability and a dumbass as some make him out to be he wouldn't have been on the team for very long. Could he have been more aware? Yeah, at times he vision tunneled perhaps but focusing on the big picture didn't really seem to be his thing and we put him in positions to maximize what he excelled at. Really bad at posting though, jesus.


nobody that is a complete liability would be ranked in this list, let alone in the mid 20's. I never said that, nor was it my intent to imply it. but as you said the big picture and positioning is not his thing, which only agrees with what I was saying. It may not be a complete liability, and it may not be exposed all the time (or even often), but it is a weakness, and that is my justification for why he cannot be ranked more highly. the highest of ranked mythers in my mind have to have the complete intellectual package, especially when emphasizing 2-team tournament ability. he did not fit the bill in this regard, thus others that did were ranked above him.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Arzenic » 10 Aug 2016, 19:08

Cutard wrote:If I go I'm taking arz with me.


nooooooooo....i'm just starting to enjoy this

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby tirri » 10 Aug 2016, 19:16

i repeat myself, np was such a good team in myth's history that i sincerely hope we get rabican's input on at least np's inner rankings. people who still play shitty games with rabican, you have to make him understand that this is more important

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Cutard » 10 Aug 2016, 19:25

rab's not touching this because he's smart

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Asmodian » 10 Aug 2016, 19:26

Cutard wrote:Alright I no longer play so I may as well comment on this.

The passivity criticism describing me was always interesting, perhaps valid in my individual play. During tournaments my focus was recruiting players that we needed, coming up with and adjusting some strats, getting people on the right units/roles and more or less back-seat capping during games. Running around the map with very mobile units calling out rushes, adjustments, playing the gametype was my thing, never really worrying about me personally BCing something for the sake of it unless there was an opportunity I couldn't pass up. NC post '06 always had a plethora of players who were more than capable of crushing the other team if they had an advantageous position, that was my job as I saw it. As far as ranking goes: as GKG said, it depends on what you value more.



And I think anyone who has captained for a long time and understands myth strategy at a high level would always rate someone with similar abilities to you near the top of their preferred teammate list. I would take a good player that communicates, has good position and takes advantage of the easy mini battles in myth over a great BCer any day.

I can't name the number of games I've lost because someone with pretty good BC ability forces a bad fight on a 3 prong strat and loses (hell sometimes they can even come up equal, but part of the strat was needing to hold that side of the map so it's essentially a strategic loss). After one flank is down the whole team is reacting for the rest of the game or just losing the game type.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Cutard » 10 Aug 2016, 19:32

(2:28:42 PM) cuthecow: zak is accusing gkg and asmo of dickriding me
(2:28:49 PM) cuthecow: we've really hit the bizarre timeline


btw, passing thought: Chohan was so absurdly good at BC and general clicking that he got into quite a few horrid situations but fought his way out regardless. One of the funnest players to watch.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby wwo » 10 Aug 2016, 21:10

I think the vast majority of the community agrees that mwc's (and large 2-team tournaments in general) are the pinnacle of myth, so they deserve a special place at the top of myth history. large 2-team is the only mode of play that has the incredible level of depth in its coordination, communication, and strategy.


From my experience with the early orders (esp civil and bmf), the 2t tourneys were sincerely less important than even the spur of the moment order matches that would pop up (~3+ members, plus fillers which could be anything from a stud from another order or just a complete unranked random). The first three MWCs were more like "oh hey they're doing mwc, let's make a team". '00 is when people starting thinking about competitive team composition instead of just playing with the friends you usually played with anyway. That's why much of those early tourneys look like shit, even when strategic evolution is accounted for. Even from '00 on, you still had good players on good teams who still (mind-boggingly to some, I know) didn't give a shit and pretty much flopped to a top 5 finish just on talent and familiarity with each other alone, not days of stratting and practice. This community might think mwc is the pinnacle of myth, but that wouldn't extend beyond a decade, and just happens to coincide with the community starting to flounder around for coherency.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 10 Aug 2016, 22:35

just further proof how unsophisticated myth was in 2000. I think by at least around 2003-2004 and beyond, the community largely agrees with my statement about 2-team tournaments. Sure mwc's weren't as big of a deal when they were just getting started in the infancy of myth. I get the point that 2-team wasn't always that way in the very beginning, but my statement stands as it has been that way for the vast majority of the history of myth.

and even if someone still wanted to disagree with that, what is pretty indisputable is that the vast majority of complexity and dimensions of game dynamics are opened up only in large 2-team play, which is the core of what makes myth a completely unique game. There isn't much complexity in the way to play an ffa game or a 1v1 in comparison to large 2-team. Just because it took a few years for people to discover the full depths of the game, doesn't mean that depth didn't exist all along.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby adrenaline » 10 Aug 2016, 22:51

Not a heavy hitter? Been "heavy hitting" since '08... Watch the TWS 2008 Finals for yourself. Pay particular attention to If I Had A Winter Series (terries) and Barbarian Valley (dark). For a good time, zoom out and put the game on 8x speed and watch the freedom my trowing gives to our artillery units. For more of a good time, watch the destruction Kirk and I put down on the Gimble FR allies game. Full series there... well fought by Np but NC came out on top.

Films: http://www.filedropper.com/tws2008

Enjoy the show.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby wwo » 11 Aug 2016, 02:03

It's too bad the population dwindled so much. These last 10 years of refinement could've been condensed into (probably) 3, but working with 50 people is naturally slower than with 5000.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 11 Aug 2016, 02:12

adrenaline wrote:if you think i'm gonna dig through archives of films to dig up examples to prove a point that I already know is true, you're more of an idiot than I thought.


Well since you just sent films, I guess you are the idiot in the end after all.

But okay great, let's have a look at this match:

game 1 snow through your nose (desert with winter mesh) terries: you are given 7 warrs and 2 pus ghols as part of a rush flank (terrible strategy by NC, but their fault not yours). You end up doing a pretty poor pinch that didn't angle more into their backfield, but okay no one on your team thought of that either and it was a dumb strategy anyway as they rushed the thrall in so early, so you get a pass. More importantly though, your 2 pus ghols die without even throwing at anything, and you manage to get all 7 of your warriors frozen by a single pus (luckily not taking too much follow-up damage so they survive). pretty unimpressive first game. but of course you would point to your dmg ratio as an indicator that it was a job well-done, when in-fact it wasn't. NC loses, NP leading 1-0.

game 2 barb valley light fr: again you are given a 9 warrior, 2 pus force. you end up getting 7 out of 8 remaining warriors destroyed by one of your own team's dorfs carrying satchels (which were unlucky enough to drop lit) as you were clumped around to defend it. Part of this is not your fault since your dorfer (which was ska) should have dropped satchels. However part of it is your fault as you let the dorf die to a few ghols just hacking at it while your warriors are in range and just walk on by. Dorf was at full health, not pussed, and just hacked to death by ghols standing in the middle of your warr pack. So pretty horrid dorf defense. Clearly you were getting overwhelmed by the micro of gekko's and tirri's ghols and the threat of a nearby dorf which you didn't think to try and pus with your 2 pus ghols apparently. Later with your 2 pus, you end up not killing anything (though you did hit a dorf at least this time, and the 2nd pus should have killed it but dudded). This game looks worse than the first. NC loses, NP leading 2-0.

game 3 great divide allies assassin: you are given 1 trow, and 2 pus ghols. instead of going to help elsewhere, your trow attempts to force a bad position pushing into about 15 archers (I guess maybe your team was trying to coordinate a pinch but it was very slow and poorly done). You do nothing for like 3-4 minutes, and your allied team ends up getting eliminated quickly as the opposing team had wisely pinched their trow elsewhere and quickly pushed. You end up doing almost nothing, getting 21 damage with your 1 trow and 2 pus ghols (the pus ghols dying without throwing even). This game looks just as bad as game 2. Again your team is partly to blame, but you are just as clueless as to what to do without any direction. There was no sense of urgency to push when your other team is being doubled by trow (and has 0 trow defending). You also don't think to maybe flank to the opposing side when your trow is sitting there staring at a bunch of archers for 3-4 minutes doing nothing. This is a prime example of what I am talking about where you are unable to make complex decisions on your own. NC loses, NP leading 3-0.

I might add that up to this point, you demonstrate your trademark mental weakness by making complaints in every game because your team is losing.

game 4 caer light ctf: you are given 7 warrs, 1 dorf, and 3 ghols (2 with pus). you end up facing against chickenwire in the south who has less % but 1 more warrior (while you have an extra ghol and a dorf). You end up staring at each other for about 5-6 minutes, until you finally start advancing, only following chickenwire after he is being forced to retreat to reinforce his team which is losing closer to their flag. 1 of your pus ghols dies without throwing. the other 2 ghols attempt a bottle pus throw, which misses hitting and doesn't hit anything. 4 of your warrs get pussed and dorfed / arched immediately after. your dorf dies to archers and your warrs are picked off. You end the game with 14 damage and 9 losses (the worst on your team). NC and NP end up tying in a close game, NP still leading 3-0-1.

game 5 calm fr: you are given 10 warrs and 2 pus ghols. your 2 pus ghols end up auto-ing both pus into a single passing enemy pus ghol, killing the enemy ghol, 1 of your ghols, and damaging your other ghol and a nearby warrior. You push further into a flag defended by thrall, a pus, and a dorf. unsure of what to do, you stand there staring at it for 30 seconds before pulling back to defend your home flag which is being attacked by tirri's 3 heron healers. you do have a decent defense after tirri screws up both of his pus badly, but all of your warriors end up dying. You do manage to pick off 1 heron healer and force tirri to use a lot of roots (and tirri should have been able to mop up your entire force far more efficiently without losing anything if he had played it better). Your dorf (which you were given later by ska) picks off another heron later as tirri bungles his melee and is now out of roots. you flank your dorf attempting to tag another flag, but you run out of time. you end the game with a bunch of damage of course because of all the heron healing damage done. You did mostly fine this game except for auto-ing both of your pus right away in the beginning, which arguably could have been used to capture the flag being defended by a dorf, which would have changed the game a lot because it would have given your team VI first. Pretty big (and rookie) mistake. NC loses again, NP now leading 4-0-1.

game 6 if i had a winter series territories: you are given 2 trow and flank north. you are later given a 3rd trow. you are mostly just playing defensive letting the arty fight it out (as you should). NP is slightly down in the arty fight. tirri and myrk end up later forcing a bad fight by engaging their 5 trow into some myrks, souls, and your trow. they end up dying horribly. this allows you to run over the rest of the map and clean up. you get 257 dmg and 0 losses. congratulations, this is the first game in the series that that you didn't do badly in finally. but of course it was more about the fuckup by myrk and tirri than anything you did on your own. NC wins. NP leading 4-1-1.

game 7 the cuckoo's nest lmoth 6 team allies: you are the captain and give yourself 2 morts and 12 mauls. lengthy arty battle ensues for a few minutes. one of your morts gets picked off by gekko on a hill. you don't do much else until at the end you get a nice easy close shot on 6 of tirri's clumped souls. your mort then gets hit by chickenwire but it duds. another shot on a soul. you end the game with 93 damage. Nothing bad about this game, but nothing great either. NC loses. NP leading 5-1-1.

game 8 barb valley dark lmoth: you are given the 3 trow. you shadow tirri's trow. tirri's trow are the aggressor trying to force something, but takes about half-a-health-bars worth of damage by running into some souls trying to kick a few zerks. NP is losing the arty fight getting a couple fetch picked off by morts. you make a move and pick off rabican's exposed force of 1 mort and 3 zerks (the first aggressive move that you initiated that I have seen so far, good job). you end the game with 155 dmg, and 2 losses. No mistakes here, but like the winter series trow game, the arty fighting does most of the dirty work, and since your team wins the trower doesn't really have to do much but shadow. NC wins, NP leading 5-2-1.

game 9 gimble 6 team allies fr: you are the captain and give yourself 4 stygs, 3 warrs, 1 jman, 1 dorf, 1 pus ghol, and 4 thrall. shai gets a nice pus shot off killing cw's dorf as he is tunneling elsewhere. kirk also gets a decent shot off on tirri's clumped melee, killing 3 warrs. you come up in the rear, and waste a pus on a long shot on some spread melee, only hitting 2 warrs and a ghol without any followup damage (not even sure what you were trying to do there, they were standing in water without any units nearby to finish them). you get a nice shot on gekko's dorf as he gets doubled and is not looking due to defending a pus elsewhere. at the end you dorf kirk's melee more than the enemy. Other than the wasted pus, not a bad game here. But again, shai, kirk, and the rest of the team do most of the dirty work, letting you push up onto the last flag without any real pressure (not a single pus was used or even threatening on your dorf). NC wins, final game score of 5-3-1.

Summary:

-out of 9 games, 3 were good performances (games 6, 8, and 9). Good performances, not great, since your impact in each of those games still falls behind the shadow of other teammates who do most of the heavy lifting those games by making the key plays to get an early lead. 1 game was just mediocre and a non-event for you (game 7). And the other 5 performances were just straight up bad. Like 1-2 baller level bad.

-Fun fact: out of 11 pus ghols you used throughout this match, only 2 hit anything, but without any further follow-up damage (killing nothing), 1 duds (should have finished an already pussed dorf), 5 die before throwing at anything, 2 auto-pus yourself (technically a throw I guess), and 1 throws but misses.

-Fun fact: out of 4 warrior packs you are given, 3 are either pussed or satcheled in clumps of 4 or more (and killed 2 of those times).

-You might be tempted to look at games 6 and 8 and think to yourself that "hey look, I out-trowed tirri." But really tirri just ran into souls and melee with his trow and died badly both games. His team was also losing the arty fights slightly, so he may have felt the pressure to try and force something, but it was still too soon on his part. This says way more about tirri's trowing than it does anything about yours. Anyone with trow on your team could have easily done the same job of shadowing trow and defending with melee/soul support as you did. You did fine, but still not great examples of supposed "heavy hitting." It is easy for any trower in games like these to take credit even though it was the arty fights or poor decisions of opposing trowers that really decided the game already. It wasn't capitalizing on a mistake or forcing a mistake to happen, the mistake just fell into your team's hands on its own.

-out of the entire match, you rarely communicate anything meaningful to your team. You just kind of go with the flow.

So this is the one match you chose to highlight your performance, which means I can safely assume this is probably one of your best tournament performances. Yet I am not impressed at all. Reviewing these films just further reinforces my opinion of you as a player, and further proves my point. You are a reactive player. As long as the fight comes to you, you are fine. But if the situation requires you to find the fight for yourself, then you are lost. You tend to fall in the background, riding the wave of your team's success or loss, rather than creating the wave yourself. You don't make the plays, you follow up on the plays of others. You are also pretty terrible at pussing and warrior packs.

Yes you technically shared heavy hitting roles with kirk and shai in this match, but heavy hitting is about much more than just being given trow (and even that's most likely just because you always ask for them). heavy hitting is more about the performance, the ones who initiate the fights early on in games, under the highest pressure and most dangerous situations, and can still consistently come out ahead to swing the balance in their team's favor early on. Or just take the label away entirely, because you seem to fixate on that label too much. The "heavy hitter" label doesn't even matter. Performance is the only thing that matters, and this performance is not impressive. Honestly, after watching this match, I would sooner think about lowering your ranking on my list than anything else.

I am sure you had better performances during the time I was on NC, but of course that is how I already know about your playstyle, so I guess you felt the need to find something before then when I would not have known you very well to try and find something different. Or perhaps you also prefer not to cite matches from the later years because later when I was on NC you had to take a backseat to my heavy hitting, so you could no longer attempt to claim or pretend to be a "heavy hitter" during those years (which seems to be the term that you have an inordinate amount of care about applying to yourself), and later than that I was the one consistently beating your teams.

Final thoughts: I was surprised to learn from watching these films that NP actually wins significantly by games in this match. I did not know that previously about these finals. Also NP really outclassed NC in this match. They were definitely the smarter team. But NC out-bc'd them on the few BC-oriented games that were very standard arty fights without any unique positioning to them. Though NP ends up winning by raw games 5-3-1, they lose the match by losing the sudden death by losing the last 2 games in a row. I'm not sure how they were sent to the bottom bracket that tournament, but I would be curious to see that match, because here they appeared to have been the better team at least in this match. Props to rabican for a solid capping performance. It removed whatever doubt I may have had about his capping abilities. Pretty bad performance by tirri I would say though.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Zak » 11 Aug 2016, 02:48

GKG I thought I did good in that match too. ANALYZE ME PLEASE

specifically cuckoo and calm



I was hishnik

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 11 Aug 2016, 03:35

calm you did good, intelligently moving around the map reinforcing where you were needed at the right place and time.

cuckoo also did good, just an unfortunate shot on rab's spids, but it was pretty well placed shot assuming rab kept running. he just turned around and fought around the same time, so just kind of an unfortunate miscoordination. other than that, you got the most damage, but it was mostly just easy for anyone in your position since your team had control of the flag, forcing the opposing team to push into your morts for easy damage. you got a couple good pick offs on some morts in the chaos. losing 1 mort was the only other thing that was less than perfection.

calm I think was the better of the 2 because there was greater chance to make a mistake there by being slow or going the wrong way, but you moved around well. you knew what to do.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Zak » 11 Aug 2016, 04:04

didn't I kill herons with a wight on calm?


I thought I wighted some souls on cuckoo as well

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby adrenaline » 11 Aug 2016, 04:08

Holy shit you have way too much free time on your hands. I chose TWS2008 because I wanted something reasonably old and because I don't have many old tourney films saved, nor any idea where to find them posted all the films because it would be pretty lame to only post the games I did well in. It's absurd to expect any player to do really well EVERY game. Ya I made some mistakes in a couple games but not as many as you seem to be emphasizing. I was probably stoned out of my mind as well... not an excuse, but it certainly never helped my game. Your notes on my trowing are pretty off, too. Good trowing is not about being super agressive... it's about defending/blocking/baiting the enemy into your artillery. Aggressive trowing often ends in losing a trow prematurely, which loses games. I did exactly what I needed to do by staying out of soulless range and making sure our artillery stayed alive and was allowed to do it's work. Yes, their trow were more aggressive... and lost a lot of health for very little return. I can be supper aggro with trow to if I decide... but it's situational. If I see an opening, I take it... if not, I don't risk the health because healthy trow = huge advantage in late game scenarios. Like I said, watch the trow dance on If I Had a Winter Series in 8x speed and zoom way out. Every move I make is calculated and our arty is able to apply the pressure as a result. That has nothing to do with "tirri and myrk" playing poorly. That is just very good trowing.

Don't really feel like dedicating the time to going through each map again and combatting your remarks, but one that stands out is the divide game. There was no standing around doing nothing. If you actually look at the situation, I drew the majority of their bows and defense off the target and had them focusing on me (while not taking much in damage), trying to allow my team to get in to that enclosure. Nine had a chance to get in, but didn't take it and the window soon closed and their 2 trow joined the fight. In hindsight, it probably would have been beneficial to keep Nine on defense while Kirk and I worked their target.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 11 Aug 2016, 04:56

it's absurd to expect any player to do really well every game. it's not absurd to expect a "good" player to do well in at least a majority of games, which you did not. also reasonable to expect a good player to not auto their pus.

i never said your trowing was bad, i just said it's not an impressive example. it's just standard, par for the course. those games were all about the arty fights, not the trowing, so it doesn't really show anything, any 3 baller could trow like that. you make it sound like its so difficult to do. you just dodge shots and block lock shots when needed, big deal. actually you took quite a bit more damage from souls and locks than tirri did, so he had a trow health advantage, he just blew it completely. nothing forced myrk and tirri to fight such a bad position walking right into souls was my point. that's their bad play, what they did to themselves, nothing that you did. not that you played it wrong, it just doesn't really mean anything either.

you are wrong about divide. you are pressing the archers when nine is waaaay behind, hes kind of going back and forth not sure what to do. nobody speaks up to correct him cuz you are all clueless apparently. he has a chance to get in later, after you have been dodging arrows for like 2 minutes. its just a cluster. your team had 2 options: to press immediately from the get-go if you were planning to do a pinch which is what it looks like was the intent. Or else you and your ally's trow needed to flank south to make yourself useful. otherwise it was just a bunch of wasted time while your south ally was dying to 2 trow and a strong push.

yea I think this is like the 3rd in-depth analysis i've done over the years describing in detail what is wrong with your playstyle. you ignore it each time. I have come to expect that, so that's fine. This is more for everyone else to make judgments for themselves. at least you can't ever say that i never gave you detailed reasoning behind why I think you aren't that good. so I guess you should learn to not be so upset by it. you thought it was trolling, yet still nobody comes to your defense. cu agreed with my assessment, and the public poll is against you as well.

so I guess live with your ranking on this list and move on with your life. case closed.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby adrenaline » 11 Aug 2016, 05:37

any 3 baller could trow like that? jesus christ man, you are truly insane.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 11 Aug 2016, 05:43

right back at you. I'll leave it up to everyone else reading to decide who is actually insane or not, or who is a more credible trower / myther.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby adrenaline » 11 Aug 2016, 06:10

you see examples literally every match of 3-5 ballers NOT trowing like that. in fact, there was a 5 baller trowing opposite me that very game. what the fuck does this have to do with credibility? you've shown yourself to be completely off your rocker already anyways. add up all your self-righteous posts in these forums and you'd have a fucking novel to rival War & Peace. what sane person devotes that much time to a game that <100 people actively play? the correct answer is LUNATICS.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Asmodian » 11 Aug 2016, 06:14

Not to detract from this semi-entertaining conversation, but I just reviewed some of my films to see if I over rate myself and nope. My 2015 MWC MVP finals performance was flawless. Interestingly enough my best performances from that match IMO were 3 of the games I had my least dmg output; games 2,6 and 7

Review those films & LOOK ME IN THE EYES and tell me I'm not top 50 all-time! What a sham! #JusticeForAsmo

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby wwo » 11 Aug 2016, 06:18

Did you know a shovel can be used both for digging a hole and hurling shit? Now you do.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 11 Aug 2016, 06:20

and what player devotes this much emotion and care to their ranking / critique of said old computer game with less than 100 players?

there is absolutely nothing impressive about shadowing trow and dodging spears. 3 ballers do it all the time. pretty simple to understand really, I am sure everyone else can figure it out.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby adrenaline » 11 Aug 2016, 07:00

There is so much more to it than shadowing and dodging... so many smaller nuances. I really don't feel I should have to explain this to you.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby sharkdrivingabus » 11 Aug 2016, 11:56

Yesterday on discord we had this exchange---

--------
Dantski: im surprised asmo hasn't thrown a shitfit for being on the list

Cu: probably too smart for that

Tb: Asmo too smart? The matrix IS broken.

---------

Thanks for setting the matrix back in order asmo

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 11 Aug 2016, 12:10

because you don't have to explain it to me. there is nothing more nuanced about shadowing trow, blocking lock shots, and dodging archers/spears. this is why people have learned not to give your best player trow on a map like grilling grounds, because the trow role is shadowed by the importance of winning the arty fight. not to say that the games you trowed on always play out like grilling grounds, but in these cases it did. you are just delusional and full of shit trying to inflate yourself.

let's get a 3rd opinion though about it though. someone go watch games 6 and 8 and tell us what you think about whether adren's job as trower was that difficult or not, and the reasons why or why not.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby adrenaline » 11 Aug 2016, 12:52

by nuanced i mean baiting mellee into artillery range (i.e faking aggression), baiting trow into soulless range (like, pretending to abandon the artillery so the their trow push in but staying close enough to respond in time), drawing shots from locks to waste mana, etc. More to it that simply dodging and shadowing. I agree with the grilling grounds thing though... not much to it other than babysitting the trow until enough bowmen are dead to get aggressive. I personally don't enjoy trowing on that map.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 11 Aug 2016, 13:36

baiting melee into arty shots is not a real thing against any half-intelligent players. and in any case, you didn't do any of that. pushing melee with trow and arty support is a real thing, that's not "baiting" though. and you couldn't push since they had souls obviously.

drawing shots from locks to waste mana..you are really reaching far here. this is a pretty negligible tactic as you risk getting hit which can add up and be bad.

baiting trow I will agree with you on that one, that is possible to tempt enemy trow to fight a bad position or take soul shots. again though you didn't do this. it's baiting if you make the enemy trow take a few hits before they recognize they are forced to back out. its not baiting if the enemy trow just fully commits to a very bad fight against 12 souls spread souls and melee. then that's just stupidity on their part. Otherwise we would call almost every trow engagement as "baiting." it's a convenient interpretation for whenever things go your way to try and imply that a player had more influence in creating a mistake than they really did. Also you took a little bit more arty / soulless shots than tirri did in game 6 before he rushes in and dies, so if anything he "baited" you more (I don't consider any of this baiting though).

myrk actually says rush souls in game. so this was an incredibly stupid call on his part. also trying to fight with split trow tends to cause stupid mistakes and bad engagements like that when people don't know when to commit to the fight or when to retreat together. before that, cw and tirri were fighting a 3v2 fight and tried pushing from a bad position with their arty. another bad call by them.

i'm not sure why you think this is some example of 5 ball trowing. there was nothing that difficult for anyone in your position. in both cases your team won the arty fight, and the enemy committed to bad fights with souls on them. pretty simple.


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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby shadow » 11 Aug 2016, 15:25

poor adren
Toddler just want more daddy's love. GKG, you heartless bastard.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Asmodian » 11 Aug 2016, 18:42

sharkdrivingabus wrote:Yesterday on discord we had this exchange---

--------
Dantski: im surprised asmo hasn't thrown a shitfit for being on the list

Cu: probably too smart for that

Tb: Asmo too smart? The matrix IS broken.

---------

Thanks for setting the matrix back in order asmo


I actually only made that post because I saw this conversation, you're welcome .

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Aki » 14 Aug 2016, 20:32

43) Myrkridon


How the hell is myrk 43rd? He's more like top 5.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Asmodian » 14 Aug 2016, 20:49

I would say more like top 3

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby sasper » 15 Aug 2016, 03:52

limp wrote:monty, erik, dwarf, and absolut are all absurdly high in these rankings.


agreed. as much as a dick that limp is, he's right on this one, especially with regards to monty and absolut. i remember retiring absolut in 1v1's while blind fucking drunk, playing on a trackpad, no formations or observer constants and still handed his ass to him.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby shadow » 15 Aug 2016, 15:32

sasper wrote:
limp wrote:monty, erik, dwarf, and absolut are all absurdly high in these rankings.


i remember retiring absolut in 1v1's while blind fucking drunk, playing on a trackpad, no formations or observer constants and still handed his ass to him.


Yeah, you retire bottle of vodka absolut 1vs1, while already blind fucking drunk, playin' with your head, with big bottle in your fat ass.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby DBSeeker » 17 Aug 2016, 02:50

Jeff the Meek on his rank:


Limp Kervorkian - Today at 7:47 PM
thats a shame
hitlow remembers you
you were ranked in the top 30 of best mythers ever by lord GKG
how do you feel about it
(jeff)
uC - Today at 7:48 PM
great
oh
beefprime - Today at 7:48 PM
seems ok

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby BIG KROK V8 SS » 17 Aug 2016, 13:43

Asmodian wrote:I would say more like top 3



LOL

myrk ranks even below you, asmodian. and you are like 5,795th

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Ratking » 18 Aug 2016, 14:40

In TWS semi-finals winter trow I gave adren 4 trow in a heavy hitting role. He did exactly that, and while he didn't rack up gigantic ratios he played the role well. He listened to orders and took care of business. We won the game.

TWS Finals g2 adren was matched up against you gkg on a grilling grounds flank. That is a heavy hitting role and he did a solid job. Against you.

In the same finals match on grave you gkg got isolated and and lost your entire squad including 4 fetch.

The whole point me saying this we all (including me) have moments where we shined and moments where we failed. I think you are judging adren harshly and he's a better player than you give him credit for. Heck, he's been a huge help to us on syn and that's not me being all skittles and rainbows for my teammates. I should have posted this sooner but I've been very busy.

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Re: GKG's Top Myth Players Of All Time

Postby Giant Killer General » 18 Aug 2016, 18:21

yea, don't care. not rehashing that argument. you missed it when it happened. this also adds nothing of value especially since i clearly said this list was based on 2003-2013. i know the tws finals was the highlight of your mything career and all, but in the big picture of myth's history, anything after 2013-2014 is pretty irrelevant for most everyone else.


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